Book-to-film adaptations and seasonal reading vibes

WSIRN - Episode 358, Lara Bulger

Lara Bulger [00:00:01] My library holds list, I found a little bit overwhelming over the past year. My library allows me to get up to 100 books on hold, so I was really taking advantage of that limit. I decided to get it down a couple of months ago and the easiest way to do that was sort of methodically work through it by season. So I knocked out a bunch of books that I felt were sort of in the same category. But, the problem is the holds list is still going up.

Anne Bogel [00:00:29] Hey, readers, I'm Anne Bogel and this is What Should I Read Next? Welcome to the show that's dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader. What should I read next? We don't get bossy on the show - what we will do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read. Every week we'll talk all things books and reading and do a little literary matchmaking with one guest. We want to begin with a welcome to all the new listeners who have joined us lately. We are so glad you're here. Every week, we take a personalized approach to the reading life, connecting readers with books that are exactly right, right now. These are evergreen conversations, so I encourage you to check out our backlist of episodes. We've got lots of Bibliotherapy and great book recs ready and waiting for you. I'd also like to pause to say a big bookstore sized thank you to our team member Brenna Frederick, who served as our What Should I Read Next producer for many years now and has been instrumental in guiding our podcast as we've grown. We wanted you to know that Brenna is shifting into a different role here, but remains a beloved and valued part of our team. Here at What Should I Read Next HQ, we are grateful for everything she's done and also the many, many titles she's added and will continue to add to our TBRs. We'd also like to thank Kellen Pechacek for the hard work he's put in alongside Brenna these past few years. He's done a top notch job with our sound design, and while that chapter is coming to a close, we are so grateful for all he's done for What Should I Read Next.

[00:02:08] Readers, so many of you talk to me about reading seasonally, whether that summer book that feel bright and beachy or fall titles that said anywhere on the spectrum between brooding to spooky to terrifying. Today's guest, Lara Bulger, is a seasonal reader who has most of the year figured out except for winter which is vexing her. She's stuck when it comes to identifying her winter reading vibe. Lara lives in Toronto, where she devotes much of her time to her passions of film and reading. With a long Canadian winter on the horizon, Lara is looking forward to identifying literary possibilities for the coming season and especially wants to leverage her library holds list for the winter months. I am so excited to dig into Lara's reading life. Our plan today is to help Lara answer some nagging questions she's been puzzling over in her reading life and, of course, help her make a plan for a great winter reading season. Let's get to it. Lara, welcome to the show.

Lara Bulger [00:03:04] Thank you so much for having me. This is incredibly surreal for me because I have listened to the podcast for so many years. I think this was actually the first podcast that I ever listened to on a regular basis back in my third year of undergrad, I think I was 2015, so it's incredible that I'm actually here today.

Anne Bogel [00:03:23] Wow. I'm so honored. What made you finally think, 'you know that could be fun to be a guest?'

Lara Bulger [00:03:30] Well, I had always wished to be a guest. I think at the beginning when I started listening, I thought that it was all people in the industry or people you know, people who had like a way in. And then I realized that was not the case. And I did submit, I think, one application before. But I know you are always overwhelmed by how many people want to be on the show. So I was just glad that this was the one that was chosen.

Anne Bogel [00:03:55] Oh, now I want to go back in the What Should I Read Next time machine and look at that early submission.

Lara Bulger [00:03:59] I am curious. Yeah.

Anne Bogel [00:04:01] Well, I'm so glad you did. And something that we often say on the show is timing is everything when it comes to putting in that submission. So I'm excited to help you find your winter reading mood. And we'll talk about that more as we go on. Something else that really stuck out from your submission was how much you loved the city you're in now. Can you tell me a little more about Toronto and what it is you do there?

Lara Bulger [00:04:24] Sure. So I was born and raised here, but I've gone away for school. So I did my undergrad in London, Ontario, and then I did my masters in Kingston, Ontario. I'm currently doing my Ph.D., also in Kingston, but I decided to stay in Toronto for this degree, just partially because it was possible because of COVID, but also in a Ph.D., you get a lot more sort of time to do your own research. You don't have to be on location at the school as much, but I also just love being here. I feel like the city has kind of shaped my interests. So I'm studying film and I don't know if I would have been as interested in films I am if not for the film festivals in the city. Toronto's home to the Toronto International Film Festival, and I think it's how I became invested in film. So it's really cool to be able to actually stay in the city and attend the festival every year. Toronto's just a great spot for all things arts. We have an amazing opera company, ballet, symphony, other book festivals as well. I like to think of it as the best place to be in Canada if you are into the arts.

Anne Bogel [00:05:44] Oh, I love it. Lara, I got to snoop your Goodreads, as you know, because of a specific request you have for your reading life. And it was so evident the influence your place has on the books that you're choosing to read and that catch your eye. I really enjoyed seeing that.

Lara Bulger [00:05:57] That's funny to hear because I actually was just thinking yesterday that I've been-- I don't think consciously-- but subconsciously trying to read more Canadian books or books by Canadian authors. And just yesterday, I'm sure we'll get into this later, but I finished an amazing book by a Canadian novelist and I'm thinking, wow, I got to read more books by Canadian authors because the same thing, in 2021, one of my favorite books of the year was also a Canadian author. And I'd never actually put in any effort to read books from here. I need to work on that.

Anne Bogel [00:06:27] Well, I can't wait to hear what it is that you just finished that you loved. And I'm so glad that you're finding good reads from your homeland. We have a lot of enthusiastic Canadian guests and also Canadian listeners who participate in the Canada Reads in your program and beyond. So I'm glad to hear that that's something that's becoming increasingly important in your own writing life. Tell me a little bit about what your reading life looks like these days.

Lara Bulger [00:06:49] Well, I do read a lot on audio, but I think-- well, it's probably about evenly split between audio and physical books. I don't read on a Kindle or E-books or anything. I need the physical book in my hand. And I also just generally love trips to the library, so getting a big haul of books I really look forward to that. Most of what I read on audio is nonfiction. I just find that easier to keep track of what's happening. But in terms of physical books in the fall, I'm really loving reading a lot of sort of mysteries and kind of darker, creepy books. This past summer I was also reading a lot of fantasies and romances. So, as I said, I'm sort of going through this seasonal thing, which I didn't used to do in the past. This has been fairly recent, just the past couple of seasons. But one book that I finished just yesterday is called The Wonder by Emma Donoghue. And it's funny because I was only incentivized to read this book because the film adaptation was premiering at TIFF and I didn't get to see it, but I was at the library and they had it there so I picked it up on a whim. And I loved it. I was so surprised because it didn't sound like something that I would really be interested in. But the atmosphere, it takes place in Ireland and sort of the Irish sensibilities were so captivating and so visceral. I could really see it taking place in my mind. I don't know if you've read this book or any other Emma Donoghue books, but I was at the library again yesterday and there was another book by Emma Donoghue which just came out a couple of months ago. So I picked that one up on a whim as well. I have no idea what it's about, but I thought she can't do any wrong.

Anne Bogel [00:08:40] So she wrote Room, right?

Lara Bulger [00:08:41] Yes.

Anne Bogel [00:08:43] But the one I've read by her is The Wonder, which I read when it first came out. And this is not meant to be a play on her earlier like smash best selling book. But when I think of that book, I picture it taking place in a dark, small, kind of dirty room where all the action is. But that was years ago. Is that even remotely accurate?

Lara Bulger [00:09:04] Yeah. I would say the majority of the book it takes place in-- it's not really a house. I mean, it's a home for this family, but it's very sort of ramshackle and very dark and dirty. And this is like 1850s Ireland, so there's no electricity. But I would say that's a pretty accurate portrait of where the book takes place.

Anne Bogel [00:09:26] With one of the books that's on your reading list that I think may be a good pick for you, it's really interesting that we're talking about The Wonder and that's all I'm going to say about that right now.

Lara Bulger [00:09:35] Okay.

Anne Bogel [00:09:36] But maybe we'll come back there.

Lara Bulger [00:09:38] I'm intrigued.

Anne Bogel [00:09:39] Lara, when you started reading seasonally, was that something that you consciously decided to embark on or was it something that you did without even realizing it and then finally noticed, oh, something has changed in my reading life.

Lara Bulger [00:09:54] I hadn't thought about this before, but I'm trying to develop a theory here. I found a little bit overwhelming over the past year my library allows me to get up to 100 books on hold, so I was really taking advantage of that limit. And I just I decided to get it down a couple of months ago, and the easiest way to do that was sort of methodically work through it by month, which turned into by season. So I knocked out a bunch of books that I felt were sort of in the same category in the summer and the same with the fall. But winter is looking a little bit more daunting because I think that I really put off some of the bigger books, the heavier books, a lot of nonfiction as well. So I think it was just in an attempt to get down that library holds list. And also because I love doing things seasonally.

Anne Bogel [00:10:47] So when you say that you've reduced your library holds list from 100 to 65, it's not just that you culled it, it's that you've read those books.

Lara Bulger [00:10:55] Yes.

Anne Bogel [00:10:56] Oh, wow. Well, how's that felt?

Lara Bulger [00:10:59] Really good. But the problem is the holds list is still going up. So it's kind of like a “take two steps forward and one step backward.” It's slow progress because every so often, of course, I'll be at the library and I'll pick something up that wasn't on my holds list or I'll hear you recommend something on the podcast that I really want to read. I'm trying to be a little bit more selective these days, but it is tough. I did get it down to 60 and now it's back up to 65, so slow progress.

Anne Bogel [00:11:33] You're moving in the right direction. Listeners, we all knew what she was going to say, right? Of course, you're adding to it. Okay, Lara, I am really excited to get into the nagging questions in your reading life-- I think we might do a little lightning round for those-- and to hear about what your seasonal reading vibe could be. Are you ready to like begin identifying what those might be by examining your taste through the lens of what you enjoy and what you don't?

Lara Bulger [00:11:58] Yes, I am so excited to hear your insights and I'm sure you'll think of things that I hadn't even thought to link together.

Anne Bogel [00:12:05] Well, I hope that's the case, and I hope with nothing else our conversation as you come away thinking about your reading life in a new way. Well, you know how this works. You're going to share three books you love, one book you don't, and what you've been reading lately. And then we will choose three books to give you some more momentum and progress in the right direction on declining that library holds list. So, Lara, let's jump in. Tell me the first book that you love.

Lara Bulger [00:12:33] So Call Me By Your Name by Andre Aciman is one of my favorite books. And I actually reread this I want to say a bit over a year ago, it was the summer of 2021. And I haven't reread books in a long time. I just don't do that anymore as much as I love some books. But this one something about I think it was because I rewatched the film and so I felt like I needed to go back and read the book. And the first time I read it, I actually listened to it on audio, which was a great experience, but I needed the actual tangible book. I needed to like read the words with my eyes. And I loved the way that the romance was treated in this book. It was sort of like a very, very slow and gradual. And it felt very honest and real. I think the atmosphere was a big part of this one too because you feel like you're in Italy in a villa just sunbathing and it feels so real. I don't know how else to describe it. Just the romance was so beautiful. And also even the family dynamic, the main character has a really great relationship with both of his parents. And all of the characters were just lovely. It just it felt like sort of sinking into a warm bath. That's the only way I can think about it. Even though it's not altogether a happy book, it feels so comfortable and comforting. And I also love the sequel Find Me, which I think that's a hot take. I don't think a lot of people love that one, but I do.

Anne Bogel [00:14:14] I didn't know that and I haven't read that.

Lara Bulger [00:14:16] Yes, I would highly recommend that one, although it's not really about the main characters. It kind of features them. But, yeah, Call Me By Your Name. Just one of my favorite romances of all time.

Anne Bogel [00:14:26] Yeah, that book-- and I mean, Call Me By Your Name-- it just feels sun drenched to me. It's got that slanting afternoon light kind of vibe about it. I know that you have said you're fascinated by the adaptation process of watching the movie after you've read the book, and this seems like a good time to hear more about that, Lara.

Lara Bulger [00:14:49] So this one I actually saw the film before reading the book.

Anne Bogel [00:14:53] And you don't usually do that.

Lara Bulger [00:14:55] No, I rarely. I only do that if I don't think I'm going to like either counterpart. So this one from the trailer, for whatever reason, I didn't think it looked like a film for me, but I ended up seeing it because everybody loved it and then I loved it so much that of course I had to go back and read the book. This past TIFF Festival, I actually read a couple of other books in anticipation of seeing the film at the festival and that's usually the way that I like to do it. I always like to compare them, but keeping the book front of mind because that is of course the the original. But for this one it actually worked well, I think, because the film and the book were both so strong. I didn't regret not having read the book before seeing the film.

Anne Bogel [00:15:46] Now lots of readers get pretty feisty about how the film is not true to the book. And as someone who knows a lot about these things and has done, I imagine a lot of deep thinking about it, I'd love to hear if you have any tips for those of us who want to enjoy the adaptations, but maybe find ourselves getting a little crankier about changes than we wish that we did.

Lara Bulger [00:16:17] Well, I think a lot of it has to do with the casting, which is really tough because characters are so subjective to readers. I could picture someone completely different in my mind than you. And so even from the outset when a film is announced and you can look up on IMDB who is playing the characters, you could get really upset with the vision that the director has. I don't know how to get around that, but I think just sort of coming to terms with the fact that that cast is the way it is and not necessarily changing your perception of the character to fit that actor, but understanding that it is an entirely different entity and the characters are a slightly different version. I also don't love watching trailers before a film, so especially if I'm very attached to a book, a lot of the time I will not watch the trailer before seeing the film. I find that if I don't have that sort of preview, I can go in without any preconceptions and that helps the experience a little bit. But, yeah, just understanding that they're entirely different and everyone is going to have a different relationship between the book and the film.

Anne Bogel [00:17:40] Yes, something that helped me a lot was when Knox McCoy on the Popcast when they did an episode about book to film adaptations and said, hey, these are different media trying to do different things. That really helped me a lot. Like, nobody's waving their magic wand over the book and making it actually come to life like it happens in some great novels we really enjoy. That's not what's happening. It's a whole different thing.

Lara Bulger [00:18:02] Yeah, I should listen to that episode.

Anne Bogel [00:18:04] I also like your advice for radical acceptance on the casting. You cannot change this. This is the deal. Choose how you wish to proceed. Lara, tell me about the second book that you love.

Lara Bulger [00:18:17] So this is called Light Seekers by Femi Kayode, and I was so surprised by this book. I love being surprised by a book because I haven't heard anything about it. And still to this day, I haven't managed to convince anyone else to read this book. Even the reviews on Goodreads are insufficient. I just haven't had anyone to talk to about Light Seekers. But this was a mystery. Again, very atmospheric. This book takes place in Nigeria. It's about a Nigerian-American psychologist who is sort of tasked with being a detective on a case where three university students have been tortured and murdered publicly. And the way that it unraveled was so fascinating. I do love mysteries, but I am often disappointed with them. I think that this was the author's very first book. So I was just shocked by how good it was and how no one was talking about it, the way that it all played out. I wasn't able to guess what was going on throughout. The characters were so good. I mean, the main character, the way that the psychologist thought was so interesting and I loved the setting here. I feel like we're really seeing like a push for Nigerian authors. And I'm so happy about that because so many incredible books have come out of Nigeria that I read recently. But I think that this was my favorite.

Anne Bogel [00:19:59] Is it characteristic of your reading life that you like to learn about a place and a culture through the fiction and perhaps nonfiction that you pick up?

Lara Bulger [00:20:07] Yes, definitely.

Anne Bogel [00:20:09] Okay. So things I'm noticing about this book is that this really starts like K.O., like drops you into the middle of a story that is in progress. So there's been a murder that you know has happened. And he's got all this marital drama right at the beginning. And all of a sudden, we have a man in the weeds. And I'd love to hear how that impacts you as a reader. We were just talking about Call Me by Your Name and how that is almost like languid in feel and this is totally different. I'd love to hear a little about that.

Lara Bulger [00:20:39] Yeah, if I remember correctly, I think the first chapter or the first couple of pages was actually showing someone's cell phone video of the events that occurred. So the actual killing of these students, you see what happens before you are actually introduced to any of the characters. You're just thrown straight in and I imagine it might be very jarring. But for me being introduced to what happened so quickly was such an effective way to grab my attention and then quickly being followed up by meeting the main character who I just thought it was so interesting how it was a psychologist, not a detective. And he's kind of thinking what am I doing here? How am I going to be able to solve this case? This isn't usually what I do. But because of that, he's able to think about the events in a different way and the relationships between the people living in the town and what precipitated these events. It was such a different way to do a mystery and because of that, I loved it.

Anne Bogel [00:21:45] Okay. Lara, what else is on your favorites list?

Lara Bulger [00:21:48] So I knew I wanted to include a nonfiction book because I think I read a lot of nonfiction, at least a third of my reading life. But this one really, really, stood out to me. So it's called Consumed by Aja Barba. And I actually read this for school. I was taking a course on consumerism and I follow Aja on Instagram. She mostly focuses on fashion and the fashion industry and the problems with it, so I knew that that this book was like at the top of my list. And the fact that I was able to factor it in as a school related book was just perfect for me. But she really discusses in depth the problems with the fashion industry, how we got to where we are today both from an environmental standpoint, the destruction that's being wrought by how much clothing we are constantly buying. And then also from an ethical standpoint, who is actually making our clothes? What are they being paid? Where are they in the supply chain? And then also why it is that in the first place we've sort of got ourselves into this mess of constantly consuming. And thinking about the deeper problems and not just shopping, but why we shop and what has facilitated this kind of industry and the growth of this industry.

Anne Bogel [00:23:21] And I'm noticing that this nonfiction book really marries the very practical, like reader do this and don't do that, but also the really big picture. Like, there's the introduction where she says, this is why this matters. But chapter two is something, like, we got to talk about colonialism before we go any further.

Lara Bulger [00:23:40] Yeah, absolutely. She's grounding it in the history of all of these different countries. She is American, but she's laying out all the roots of the problem colonialism, capitalism, and then not proposing a band aid solution, but saying the way that we need to rethink absolutely everything, all of the structural problems here.

Anne Bogel [00:24:05] Lara, I'm really forming a picture of you as a reader as someone who wants the whole picture, who wants to know the why and the how and what happens next. Does that resonate?

Lara Bulger [00:24:15] Yeah, absolutely. I think that's why I read so much nonfiction. If I can find a book that delves into the why and how, as you say-- I think one time you recommended a book called The True Cost, which is also about the fashion industry-- I'm always looking for those explanations through reading.

Anne Bogel [00:24:33] That's good to know. And I wonder if we'll see how that is reflected or not in the book that didn't work. Would you tell me about that?

Lara Bulger [00:24:42] Yeah. So this one was a real disappointment for me because I thought it was going to be, I guess, a mystery. This was called The Push by Ashley Audrain. And I had two close friends who this was in their like top books of the year, both of them. So I was thinking, okay, this didn't originally appeal to me when I first heard the storyline, but it if two people both loved it, whose tastes I generally trust, then I should probably give it a try. And I think even like a quarter of the way in, I was not enjoying myself and I was starting to dread. I was listening to it on audio actually. I'm not sure why I chose that. I don't usually do that for fiction. But I think it's probably because I wasn't very excited about it, so I sort of wanted to just knock it out. I started dreading listening to it and I just there was something about the way I felt about knowing what was going to happen because I didn't know exactly how things were going to play out, but I knew they weren't not going to play out well. Slowly things are sort of falling apart for this woman. You sort of get a sense of her back story. She did not have a very happy childhood. And I think it sort of even goes back many generations. We sort of see what happened to the women in her family and the trauma they endured. So the main character, she has a daughter and she just gets the sense that there is something wrong with this child. But she also thinks maybe it's all in her head. Her husband doesn't believe her about the child. And you know as the reader that there is something deeply wrong going on. And I just had such a sense of dread of finding out what was happening and I didn't want to know. And I find this happens for me sometimes with film and books. I just cannot continue if I have this overwhelming sense of dread. And it's not that I have a problem with heavy books or dark books, but something about this book just wasn't for me and I had to put it down at about the halfway point. And I looked up what happened because I was curious how it played out, but I physically couldn't push myself through reading this book.

Anne Bogel [00:27:16] Lara, you mentioned the film in your submission that conjured this same kind of feeling. Would you tell us about that?

Lara Bulger [00:27:22] Yeah. So Marriage Story is another good example of this. And people are shocked when I say this because I know everyone loves Marriage Story. I think it was nominated for a bunch of Oscars. I don't remember if it won best picture. But the sense of dread that I felt about the story, it's just about this relationship falling apart. These two people who things are getting worse and worse between them, their relationship. And you know it's not going to end well. And I just felt this overwhelming sense of dread and I didn't want to know what happened next. I just couldn't put myself through that, so I had to stop watching halfway through. And I haven't found anyone else who's had that same experience with this film.

Anne Bogel [00:28:09] Wait, really?

Lara Bulger [00:28:10] Yeah. Everyone that I've spoken to loved it.

Anne Bogel [00:28:14] Oh, Lara, let's talk. I hated Marriage Story. I watched this on an airplane because I was thinking I'm by myself, this is getting nominated for a bunch of awards. Two hours, what else do I want to do with my time here by myself? Oh, my gosh. So I had read the critical reviews just gushing about how this was a completely realistic portrait of a marriage falling apart. And at the time, I think this was maybe 2018, which I've been doing What Should I Read Next for a couple of years at this point. I should I should have known to stop and think, yes, Anne, but is that the kind of thing that you enjoy? And the answer is no. A realistic portrait of a terrible and rapidly deteriorating marriage, no, I don't want to hear about that. I don't want to see that. It doesn't matter who it's fictional. But that kind of realism of that kind of content is not something that I wish to bring into my life fictionally. So I can be your one person because it's never just you, but it really helps to connect with somebody who feels the same way even if we know intellectually that we are not alone.

Lara Bulger [00:29:21] Oh, that is so good to hear. That is so validating.

Anne Bogel [00:29:26] Okay, so the theory I'm working on here is that you read and enjoy books that really like plainly portrayed terrible things happening to people. Like Light Seekers is based on an actual event of terrible things happening in the real world, but your main character is moving toward some kind of satisfying resolution. And I think perhaps these are realistic depictions of terrible things that don't have any hope of that are just really not right for you. And I think the realism and the no hope of any sort of satisfying resolution, I think those two things together mean that that's not a book for you right now. Maybe that will never be a book for you. What does that sound like to you when you hear that?

Lara Bulger [00:30:16] Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I need some kernel of hope. I do. I really like a good resolution at the end of a book or film. I need it to not necessarily wrap up nicely with a bow and an unrealistic manner, but I need some kind of resolution.

Anne Bogel [00:30:36] Okay. Lara, what have you been reading lately?

Lara Bulger [00:30:41] Before TIFF, I wanted to read a couple of the books that were being adapted. So I read On The Come Up, which is by Angie Thomas, who also wrote The Hate U Give which I loved. And I think I like The Hate U Give better. But On The Come Up was a lot of fun because it's about a young woman who wants to be a performer. She wants to be a rapper. I think the part that I enjoyed most was her writing. Her songs, I thought were really, really, strong. I know that it's an older author, but I'm just thinking, wow, if someone at age 15 or 16 or whatever age she was able to write this on the fly because a lot of it is improvisation, I thought that was so interesting. So I enjoyed On The Come Up not as much as The Hate U Give though. And then I also read Women Talking, which is a Miriam Toews book, which is also at the festival, and I enjoyed this. It's one of those books where it all takes place in one day. So it's about a small Mennonite community, and there's been assaults on many of the women repeatedly. And the women have to decide what to do. Do they stay or do they leave? How do they deal with their faith in the face of what has happened to them as a community? So I thought it was really interesting, but it almost felt like not enough. It's sort of the tip of the iceberg. And there was just so much that could have been discussed. I feel like this could have been such a longer story and it's just a tiny, tiny bit. It's just sort of one day of conversation about what to do, and it touches on so many different elements. So I enjoyed it, but it didn't quite feel like enough for me.

Anne Bogel [00:32:40] So you have the why and the how. The whole book is really about what happens next, what should happen next.

Lara Bulger [00:32:45] Yeah.

Anne Bogel [00:32:46] But you would have liked more answers to that question.

Lara Bulger [00:32:48] Yes, I need the answers. And then, lastly, I just got to throw in Daisy Jones and the Six because I loved this book and I was so surprised because I didn't like Malibu Rising that much. I mean, I enjoyed it, but I think because that was my first book by her. People loved Taylor Jenkins Reid. And so Malibu Rising was the first book that I read by her and I enjoyed it, but I didn't really get what the hype was about. So we went back and read Daisy Jones and the Six because among other reasons it was being adapted into a mini series and I loved it. I was so surprised by how much I loved it. And now I'm thinking, wow, this book was worth the hype. Maybe all those other books that I've been putting off because I don't think they're worth the hype actually are worth hype.

Anne Bogel [00:33:35] What elements did you most enjoy about it?

Lara Bulger [00:33:38] Well, I have to say the characters. Everyone says this, but you actually find it difficult to believe that the events didn't take place, that this is not based on a real band because the people feel so real. The characters, the emotions they're going through, the way that this band is covered and everything that they went through, the way that they wrote their songs, it just felt so real. And even reading the lyrics, I love that. And afterwards I couldn't stop listening to--

Anne Bogel [00:34:14] Okay, my one guess is Fleetwood Mac.

Lara Bulger [00:34:16] Yes, Fleetwood Mac. Because apparently it was roughly based on the story of that band and how they got together and how they fell apart. So, yeah, I couldn't stop listening to Fleetwood Mac and I cannot wait to see this adaptation.

Anne Bogel [00:34:32] I feel like they've been talking about it for so long that I was wondering if it's actually going to happen. But you know things about film. You were at TIFF. Like, this is coming.

Lara Bulger [00:34:40] It is coming. Every so often I look up when is it coming out or like who has been cast lately? Because I need to know.

Anne Bogel [00:34:48] Okay. We're going to talk about what you may enjoy reading next. I have ideas. Lara, this is a different experience for me because usually I'm thinking of all the books. But you sent me a list of how many?

Lara Bulger [00:35:01] I think there was about 60 library holds.

Anne Bogel [00:35:05] Yes. So I had a better idea going in of where our conversation may lead than I usually do. But also you have some nagging questions in your reading life that we wanted to explore. And how do you feel about a lightning round?

Lara Bulger [00:35:17] I would love that.

Anne Bogel [00:35:19] Let's go.

Lara Bulger [00:35:20] Okay. So I haven't managed to find any young adult books that have really worked for me in a long time, and I am struggling with why that is.

Anne Bogel [00:35:30] Okay. My first thought is, I wonder if you've grown as a reader and you're used to reaching for a certain kind of YA book and yet you're not the reader you were five years ago, but you're reaching for the same books. That's one possible idea. Another possibility is that you're reaching for YA as a genre and knowing that you've enjoyed lots of YA in the past, but there's so much variety within every genre that maybe even though you've enjoyed YA you're not reaching for the types of novels that you enjoy. Two possibilities. What's your gut reaction?

Lara Bulger [00:36:06] This isn't what you're saying, but what I'm hearing is that I used to be a YA reader and maybe I'm not anymore. I know that's not what you're saying, but...

Anne Bogel [00:36:18] Yeah, that is true. You weren't so far beyond the age range of the genre when you were reading not that long ago, and now you're reading with a different lens. And that's bound to impact the way that you approach these books and these characters. And we know that you really care about your characters.

Lara Bulger [00:36:32] Yeah. Okay. So I have been wondering about this both in film and in books why some romances work for me and why others really do not.

Anne Bogel [00:36:43] I think the answer is both simple and complex. Is that we often enjoy as readers and film watchers and diner outers and athletic pursuers and any number of travelers. We may often like something within a certain category, but that doesn't mean we like everything within a certain category. And so thinking about those other issues, those other topics, those other themes, the nuances of character can help us. Like, does it have an existential sense of dread like in a romance? Hopefully not. But that does exist in some literary fiction. And we may enjoy lots of literary fiction, but we do not want to read books that talk about that, and that's okay. But being able to identify those things can help lead us toward books we do really enjoy. I would encourage you to think about are there certain authors? Is there a certain kind of tone? Is there a certain trope that you really enjoy or really, really don't? Is it about writing style? Is it about character? Is it about relatability? These are some questions I would encourage you to consider.

Lara Bulger [00:37:48] Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Okay. And then the big question, why are there some books, for example, The Push, that I just physically cannot push through? What is it about those? I think you kind of answered this before.

Anne Bogel [00:38:07] What do you think?

Lara Bulger [00:38:09] Well, it's the lack of hope. I think the knowing that there will not be a resolution, at least not one that is acceptable to me.

Anne Bogel [00:38:20] Yes. And to that, I'd add sometimes it's the lack of resolution where even when the book ends, you're still left feeling like the sword is dangling over the characters. It hasn't dropped yet, but it feels like it's going to. So the author is just prolonging that sense.

Lara Bulger [00:38:34] Yeah.

Anne Bogel [00:38:34] And there is a whole category of-- I mean, with thrillers you often begin a book and you're in the middle of an action and you know more than the character does. And you can see that things are shaping up badly, which The Push is a rather extreme example of a book that does have that sense of dread. But that would be something worth knowing about yourself as you're considering what to read next. If you're reading about a character in peril, especially if you know more about the bad situation than they do, that could just be really uncomfortable for you. Maybe in five years you'll enjoy those books. I kind of doubt it. Maybe you will. You don't have to write these off forever, but knowing right now that's really not working for me. I can't physically finish those. And if you're not assigned to read something in school, you get to choose what you want to read and you don't want to have that horrible feeling. And that is well and good and fine.

Lara Bulger [00:39:23] Thank you for validating for me.

Anne Bogel [00:39:26] Do you need a permission slip? Because I'll write one.

Lara Bulger [00:39:28] I think just because people were so appalled when I told them I couldn't get through The Push or Marriage Story. I mean, there's some books that people don't get through and that are widely understood if it's like a really, really, long book or something maybe a lot older that's harder to get through. But these two, I think, really surprised my friends.

Anne Bogel [00:39:52] You don't want to watch other people's pain. That's fine. Totally fine.

Lara Bulger [00:39:54] Yes.

Anne Bogel [00:39:55] Lara, thank you for playing lightning round with me. And now can we talk about what you may enjoy reading next?

Lara Bulger [00:40:01] Please, yes.

Anne Bogel [00:40:04] So, Lara, you have theories on what you think may suit this season.

Lara Bulger [00:40:09] I do. When I picture winter books, I think of just sitting with a really large hardcover paperback. I do not have a fireplace in my apartment, but that's sort of where I picture sitting with long socks, with something really hefty, larger book, maybe something nonfiction that I can really dive into. That's the image I have in mind. Whether or not that plays out, I don't know yet.

Anne Bogel [00:40:39] So you're thinking perhaps nonfiction and heavier books. Does that feel freeing to you or does that feel restrictive to think about making nonfiction your default for those months?

Lara Bulger [00:40:48] It actually feels freeing, I think, because not that I haven't let myself read nonfiction in the summer and fall, but it just didn't really fit into what I had envisioned for those two seasons. So, yeah, I sort of feel like I have a backlog of nonfiction to get through.

Anne Bogel [00:41:04] Okay, Lara, you loved Call Me By Your Name by Andre Aciman. Light Seekers by Femi Kayode and Consumed by Aja Barber. Not for you was The Push by Ashley Audrain, a Canadian author. I don't know that we mentioned that.

Lara Bulger [00:41:23] Oh, is she? I didn't even know that.

Anne Bogel [00:41:25] But that doesn't overcome the dread. You are not morally bound to enjoy every book published in your country by a fellow Canadian. Lately you've been reading On the Come Up by Angie Thomas, Women Talking by Miriam Toews and Daisy Jones and the Six by Taylor Jenkins Reid. And we talked about books that may suit your vibe. Not all of these are for your winter reading vibe, but I want you to know about them all. The first one is nonfiction that would be perfect for winter. And Lara, I'm just reminding you that I'm choosing from your library holds list. You have so much good stuff on here. So let me start by saying some of the books that we are not going to talk about today that made me think, oh, yes, she is going to enjoy those. Cast by Isabel Wilkerson. The Fruitful Setting that takes place in Toronto. A Good War by Seth Klein. Hidden Valley Road. Medical Apartheid. Can I recommend medical apartheid? Would make an amazing pairing with Take My Hand by Dawn Perkins Valdes from the Summer Reading Guide.

Lara Bulger [00:42:24] Book flight?

Anne Bogel [00:42:24] Yes, that would be amazing together. There's more. We could keep going, but I'm really excited about the books that you have picked out for yourself. I think you have a lot of faith in your instincts most of the time, and I just want to say, yes, those sound great. One of the books I really want to highlight for you is called A Platonic: How the Science of Attachment Can Help You Make and Keep Friends. This is by a psychology professor at the University of Maryland. Her name is Marissa G. Franco. And the core idea to this nonfiction read is that friendship, platonic friendship, even though it doesn't get nearly the attention that romantic love does in books and film, that it's still crucial. Not still crucial. It is so crucial in order for us to live healthy and fulfilling lives. She really says We don't talk enough about this and we're going to start right now in this book. So what she does is she starts by making a case for why platonic friendship matters. But most of the book is about the how. And to go into this, she uses a combination of data and anecdotes. You should know what you're getting into, especially because you're in a Ph.D. program. This is popular psychology. It's very accessible. It is not academic. That will be a relief to some readers and kind of a disappointment to others who want to get more into the nitty gritty and the data. And I can see from your list of books that a lot of what you have on your radar that you're planning to read and a lot of what you have read and enjoyed has been pretty academic. This is not that. But in this book, she lays out the three attachment styles. Some of us are securely attached, some are anxiously attached, some are avoidant. And then she demonstrates how each of us may have come to adopt that style. And it all goes back to your childhood. And then she shows how that plays out in our adult friendships. So I like this for you because much of this is very theoretical, like, what are we doing here? How do we get here? Much is very practical. She is giving tips, guidance, advice on how to develop better and deeper friendships. And she says this is something we're missing today. She talks a lot about Americans being in Maryland. But I don't know if you think that Canadian friendships are much different, but Americans have a lot fewer close friendships than they did 30, 50 years ago. So some of her guidance is about mindset. She gives advice like assume people like you instead of assuming that they don't. And some is really action oriented. Like there's lots of talking about the need to take the initiative when seeking to form and really solidify adult friendships. But I like this for you because it's interesting information. It would have an effect on your life. And also you love stories. You read a lot. You read widely. You read a lot of fiction. Reading this book will impact the way you perceive relationships and relationship dynamics between characters in the books that you are reading. And I think that'll be fun for you. How does that sound?

Lara Bulger [00:45:19] Yeah, that sounds great. This one, I mean, as soon as I heard of it, I don't remember who is from like a Goodreads list or I think you recommended it as well. I was like, Yep, that one's going on hold for me. It is something I was definitely looking forward to.

Anne Bogel [00:45:37] Okay. Now we're going to move on. I'm going to give you a duet of books because they've both got a Harry Potter connection. So the first you didn't need me to put it on your radar, but I'm just cosigning this. It's Madly Deeply: The Diaries of Alan Rickman. So I imagine you know the deal. I loved it when I first read the announcement that his diaries were being published. The subhead was, It's okay. He wanted them to. That was the intention. And he started these in the mid-nineties. And, yes, they were written with the intention of future publication. So this is so obvious for you. You're studying film. You love it. It means a lot to you. One critical review I've read of this book, which at the time that Lara and I are talking, is not out yet. We haven't read it unless you have it in. Lara, do you have it in?

Lara Bulger [00:46:21] I don't have it in.

Anne Bogel [00:46:23] Yeah, me either. Too bad. Like, there is so much about the industry, the actors, the behind the scenes of the productions. Apparently, he really loved to gossip. I wouldn't have guessed that about Alan Rickman, but there's so much insider film stuff in here. I totally see why this is on your library hold list. Is there anything you'd like to add to that?

Lara Bulger [00:46:46] Alan Rickman seemed like such a lovely person. I know you can't really tell with famous people who you'll never meet, but you just get a sense that he's so wonderful. And I was so excited to see that this was not on my radar at all. I had no idea he was keeping diaries. But this sounds like it'll be a lot of fun.

Anne Bogel [00:47:10] I hope so. And to sneak into my film duets, I think Evanna Lynch's memoir, The Opposite of Butterfly Hunting: The Tragedy and the Glory of Growing Up. I can really see how this ended up on your list. So you know that this is by the Irish actress who many of you listeners know as Luna Lovegood. Despite the fact that we know her as Luna, though, this memoir has is not about Harry Potter. It's not about it Luna. It has just enough of the Harry Potter years in there. But this is primarily a memoir about her experience with anorexia. And readers, some of these stories are gut wrenching. And actually some of you may want to flip forward a couple of minutes right now as we talk about it. But what many didn't know until this memoir came out, I think a little over a year ago, was that in her pre Harry Potter years, beginning at the age of 10 or 11, Evanna Lynch read a diet on the back of a cereal box because diet culture is everywhere and she starts restricting as a way of staving off womanhood. This may sound a little bit like Janette McCarty's memoir, I'm Glad My Mom Died, which has been everywhere this fall. Definitely different family of origin story. But that restricting is a way of postponing like normal human development is a common thread, so it details that time all the way through her time spent at an inpatient treatment facility and her road to recovery, which she considers to be ongoing. She introduces this idea at the very beginning of the book that we have this compulsion to turn every story into a fairy tale. But she really resists that and goes on to say that she believes in the kind of fairy tales that have depth, complexity, profundity and moments of darkness that birth a fiercer belief in the light. I read one review that says reading this book felt like you're just in a tumble down into Evanna's pensive. Like just everything feels so immediate and urgent as she portrays what happened and what was going on in her mind.

[00:49:12] And anorexia memoirs are often criticized as being how to manuals for those who could find that kind of disordered eating behavior tempting. And this one she very specifically sought to avoid talking about numbers, are talking about methods, but mostly she's talking about what was going on in her mind and in her heart. And she talks about wrestling with needing to overcome so much self-hatred in order to really feel she become the creative person that could be that actress, that could be Luna and beyond. Title is really interesting. So it's called The Opposite of Butterfly Hunting. And the idea here is that she's always loved butterflies and butterflies are beautiful and glorious and she always loves to see them. But the only way to really see a butterfly long term is to kill it and pin it down. And she said she's trying to capture the goodness in her life, that is the antithesis of what she sought to create. So to bring this back around, Lara, you said that you really love The Wonder by Emma Donoghue, which is the story of the church's attempt to prove a miracle when a young Irish girl claims that she's living without eating. She's shunning on nutrition and just carrying on and it is fine. Is this the same thing? No. But is the timing of perhaps these two books in your life, like, really interesting? I think maybe. Okay. So Alan Rickman, Evanna Lynch, how do those sound to you?

Lara Bulger [00:50:49] Well, I don't actually think I knew too much of what Evanna Lynch's book was about. I like her as a person, so I had put it on hold. But I think that hold had been there for a long time. And I knew the sort of rough contours of her life story, but I didn't know that that was the main thing that the book was about. So, yeah, that sounds really interesting. And I don't know if you could tell how big a part of my life Harry Potter is just based on the fact that I have two memoirs from Harry Potter actors in my library holds list. But it's kind of funny because we didn't talk about that at all in this conversation, and yet somehow that came to the fore in any event.

Anne Bogel [00:51:30] I'm glad we're talking about it now. Finally, I have a fantasy novel for you. This will notbe a December and January read if you go nonfiction and heavier books, but I think it could be a really good one for you. And I'd be so interested in hearing how this book lands, knowing that fantasy as a genre hasn't really lately. Maybe that's because of the specific books you've been picking up. Maybe it's because YA fantasy hasn't felt right lately. But I'm excited about what you may think about this one, which is R.F Kuang's new release that came out last summer. It's called Babble. It has a very long subtitle. So Babel or the Necessity of Violence: An Arcane History of the Oxford Translators Revolution. Okay, you said ooh! What's going on?

Lara Bulger [00:52:17] I don't think I've heard anything about this one.

Anne Bogel [00:52:20] Let me tell you. So this is historical fantasy. The publisher calls it a thematic response to the secret history and a tonal response to Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell. And if you're thinking that sounds a little cerebral, don't worry, it's so easy to get swept up in this story. Or maybe author of The 10,000 Doors of January, Alex Harrow. Maybe her description sounds more accessible. She says it's the secret history on the scale of empire. It's Jonathan Strange with teeth. So in this book, if you meant you wanted to read literally heavier books in the winter months, this one is just over 500 pages. So maybe we could sneak it in that way. But in this book translation-- and that is taking a text in one language and rendering it into another-- becomes actual magic. And Kuang doesn't explain how it works until a good way into the book, but basically this world of her creation which is almost London in almost the 1830s, but there are some very important differences. This world it runs on the combination of bars of silver, like the precious metal, plus language used in a very specific way. And it is mostly set in in London and Oxford. So in this world, the British Empire is literally powered by silver. And so the British Empire always needs more silver, and that leads to problems. And at the heart of these problems is a young man named Robin Swift. He was born in China. He was raised by a wealthy man in London. And then he got sent off to Oxford as he's been preparing his entire life to do, to work as a translator at Babel.

[00:54:07] This is the Institute of Translation at Oxford, where when he begins his work, he starts optimistic, thinking like, oh, my work, my translations bring people together. But he slowly comes to realize that because of the colonial system that his work is always in service to, an act of translation is an act of betrayal. So many readers are going to love this for that dark academia vibe. In reading this book, I kept thinking of our episode with Garry Rovenon [Sp]. It was episode 327 called Brilliant Books That Ask Big Questions. What he loved was like a quiet kind of sci-fi novel that could really wrestle with big philosophical questions about being a human in this world today. So fantastical fictional setting in the service of engaging deep, meaningful, relevant questions. And I think this book does that so well. R.F. Kuang is talking about the complexities of race and power and privilege and revolutions. And I think this has those realistic issues that matter like the why, the how, the what does it mean? But it's wrapped in this fantastical package in the slightly-- not off kilter, but the slightly magical 1830s, London and Oxford. I think this could be fun for you. How does that sound?

Lara Bulger [00:55:31] Yeah, it reminds me a bit of Ted Chang stories. I read one of his short story collections, Exhalation and I don't know something about the way you're describing it reminded me of I think it's the first or the second story in that series. But the thing about Ted Chang's stories is they're just short stories. And for most of his short stories, I wish they were like a full novel length. And this you said it's 500 pages. So this sounds perfect.

Anne Bogel [00:56:02] Also for anyone who reads translated works, there is-- perhaps unsurprisingly-- a lot of philosophizing about the art of translation. Does that some boring philosophizing? It's not at all. There's a lot of spirited discussion about what's at stake. There's a lengthy conversation about the word Heimlich in German. Which my son is studying German in college, so I had to like text him the whole paragraph to be, like, okay, they're talking about your language. But what does it mean and how the nuances are different in every language? And how many of us have this idea that there's a direct one to one correlation, not just in words but in ideas, when we're moving from one language to another and how, no, that's not the case. And there is a lot of discussion of what the practice actually involves and how translators are making these decisions. And so these spirited conversations may be happening among fictional characters in 1830s, not exactly Oxford, but it still provides lots of really relevant insight for anyone who reads translated literature and is thinking about, well, what's involved? How did that book come to be in my hand so that I can read it? I think it could be good, nerdy fun for you.

Lara Bulger [00:57:11] Yeah, that sounds like a lot of fun.

Anne Bogel [00:57:15] Lara, we talked about a lot of books today. But of these final four, we talked about Platonic by Marisa G. Franco. We talked about our two Harry Potter books, Madly Deeply Alan Rickman Diaries, and the Opposite of Butterfly Hunting by Evanna Lynch and then Babel by R.F. Kuang. Of those books, three of which are on your library holds list, one of which I'm sorry to say, I ticked your count up just a little bit. What sounds good? What do you think you'll read next?

Lara Bulger [00:57:45] I might go with Platonic. I think I was so excited to hear about that one for the first time and also something about the fact that it's so new. It's really got me excited.

Anne Bogel [00:57:57] I'm excited you're excited. Are you going to save it till winter or are you going to read it now?

Lara Bulger [00:58:02] I think I'm going to read it now.

Anne Bogel [00:58:03] I love it. Thanks so much for talking books with me today. This has been a joy.

Lara Bulger [00:58:07] Thank you so much. This has been amazing.

Anne Bogel [00:58:12] Hey, readers, I hope you enjoyed my discussion with Lara. And I'd love to hear what you think she should read next. Find Lara on Instagram, Goodreads, and Storygraph at LaraBriann. And find the full list of titles we talked about at WhatshouldIreadnextpodcast.com/358. Get our weekly newsletter in your inbox. Each week, I share a few pieces of bookish news I enjoyed, tell you what I've been reading and give you updates on what's happening here at What Should I Read Next? Sign up at WhatshouldIreadnextpodcast.com/newsletter. Another great place to keep up with our show and with me is on Instagram. I'm there @Annebogle. Our shows page is What Should I Read Next. Follow along for bookish fun episode quotes and clips, Patreon sneak peeks and more. Follow along in Apple Podcasts, Spotify Overcast wherever you get your podcasts. Tune in next week when I'll be talking with returning What Should I Read Next guest and time management expert Lara Vanderkam about tackling big reading projects while bringing more joy and ease into our reading lives.

[00:59:16] Thanks to the people who make the show happen. What Should I Read Next is created each week with production assistants by Holly Walker Chaefsky [Sp] and Editing and sound design by Studio D Podcast Productions. Readers, that's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And as Rainer Maria Rilke said, "Ah! How good it is to be among people who are reading." Happy reading everyone.