A special episode to celebrate our 400th

[00:00:00] ANNE BOGEL: Hey readers, I'm Anne Bogel and this is What Should I Read Next?. Welcome to the show that's dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader, what should I read next? We don't get bossy on this show. What we will do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read.

Today we are celebrating our 400th episode. Thank you so much for coming with us on this journey that started on January 12th, 2016, with Episode 1. Actually, it started ways before that. I don't know, we might get into some of that today, but we're really excited to be at this milestone. Thank you so much for making it possible, for allowing us to have a podcast where we get to talk books every single week, every single Tuesday, the best day of the week. We're just so grateful to be here.

[00:01:06] If you could help us celebrate our 400th by telling a friend about the show. That word of mouth is absolutely the best way for new readers to find What Should I Read Next?. And that's really our love language as podcasters, for you to tell your friends that this is a book podcast worth listening to.

Readers, a few weeks ago, we asked you to share your questions about the show and tell us your favorite What Should I Read Next? stories. We thought it would be fun to do a mailbag episode for our 400th. And you sent in so many good ones. We had such a great time as a team reading through your questions and your stories.

Today I'm so excited to welcome Shannan Malone to the show. Shannan, hi.

SHANNAN MALONE: Hello.

ANNE: Shannan is our team co-host and contributor and we are going to go through the mailbag today. Just picture us sitting on the floor with a giant like Santa's sack of goodies and we're just going to pull them out and see what's here. Shannan, thanks for joining me. Are you ready to get into it?

SHANNAN: Let's do it.

[00:02:08] ANNE: All right, let's get to it. So I just perused our special episode history in What Should I Read Next? HQ, which is the actual name of the spreadsheet that we have been using since 2015 to track what is happening with this podcast. So I think historically we've done some big celebrations on the anniversary around January 12th.

SHANNAN: Yes.

ANNE: And sometimes on these nice round-numbered episodes.

SHANNAN: Mm-hmm.

ANNE: But what I found out was on our 100th, we did... I mean, I say we did nothing special, but we had a great guest on, Keith Watts who was, I think, good friends with Brenna Frederick, our longtime producer. But it wasn't like, ta-da 100. It was a literary matchmaking episode.

For our 200th and 300th, we had really fun celebratory episodes. We especially made a really big deal of our 300th episode.

SHANNAN: I'm so proud of that one.

[00:03:03] ANNE: It was so good. Okay. Funny thing though, I realized in HQ that if you want to go back and listen, it's not actually episode 300th that you're listening to. To listen to the replay of that event we did for Episode 300, it's actually Episode 308. Absolutely worth finding in the archives. It's called The crowd goes wild for these perennial favorites.

Shannan, do you want to say any words about a reason or two why that episode might be particularly dear to your heart?

SHANNAN: Anyone who has been around long enough knows that A Psalm For The Wild-Built is one of my favorites. And we got to talk to Becky Chambers in that episode.

ANNE: And Peter Heller and Tayari Jones. It was amazing. It was so great. So, for our 400th today, we realized in team meeting that we hadn't had a mailbag episode in forever, and we thought this would be a perfect opportunity to step back and talk about the show instead of being in the show like we are every week.

So we asked for your questions and stories and y'all, I mean, we've got this feedback here of goodies with behind-the-scenes reading tips, book projects, about our processes, delightfully random stuff and so many great stories. You'll hear all sorts of goodness today.

[00:04:22] SHANNAN: Yeah. So let's get started with some behind-the-scenes questions for What Should I Read Next?

ANNE: Oh, we love behind the scenes.

SHANNAN: Yes, I do too. So let's go. Laurie Munn, in a book club post, asked, "What goes into the decisions to help you select which submissions to feature on the show?

ANNE: If you don't know, the vast majority of our guests come from our submission form, which is open for anyone to fill out. It's at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com/guest. Many members of our team go through those submissions every week to see which ones would be a good fit for the show right now.

Shannan, see how this sounds to you. I'd say that we're always looking for a nice mix of readers. We like variety in all the ways, whether that's where you are in the world, your age, your profession, the genres you enjoy, the specific titles you're choosing in that genre.

[00:05:30] Sometimes we really like a submission, and will be like, "Oh, this is such a good submission," but the books or three books I've recommended so much. I wish the books were different." Or "Oh, we're on a real streak of everybody's saying the book that wasn't for them with this particular author, and we'd love to see something different." So, Laurie, I wasn't answering that directly, but we are looking for variety, especially in the titles.

Something that we haven't always asked readers but we have the past few years is, what's an interesting topic you'd like to talk about with Anne on the show? And we often pick with that topic leading if someone has experience teaching literature in prisons, for example, is one that came in this past week, or library advocacy, or I don't know, like a backpack of books they took with them on an Icelandic vacation. Just little things that catch your eye or sound exactly right for the season we're planning for.

Shannan, I see you nodding along. You're one of our team members whose actual job in your job description is to review those submissions.

SHANNAN: Yes, it is.

[00:06:33] ANNE: What am I missing? And what do you specifically keep an eye out for?

SHANNAN: Well, specifically, I'm looking at diversity in people that we're having onto the show. This one sounds selfish, but it served me well in the past. I just look for submissions that I want to hear about. Like if I'm reading it, and I'm like, "Oh, I want to learn more," then that's one that I will say, "Hey, I like this one."

ANNE: You say it sounds selfish, but you listen to podcasts.

SHANNAN: I do.

ANNE: So wanting to feature stories that you want to listen to I think is a really good indicator. Personally, I look for conversations that I want to have or conversations that I know that someone in our audience will be like, "Oh my goodness, finally, I'm so happy this person is here to talk about this specific thing." And I'm just saying that's at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com/guest.

SHANNAN: So, Becka, from Instagram wants to know, do you write the podcast like a script? Or do you make it up as you go along?

[00:07:39] ANNE: In some ways, it seems like that'd be really nice to read it like a script. No. To answer the question, you didn't ask Becka, I always have a conversation with the guest I'm recording with who I've 98% of the time have never met or interacted with before. Maybe it's more like 92%.

But the last thing I often say is like, "I'm really excited to talk with you and to have this conversation." I have only a very rough idea of where it's going to go and where we're going to end up by the end, but I'm really excited to be having it. So thank you for being so generous with your time and your reading life. Because that's a big ask of people.

But we have a structure. I mean, you all know how it works. We talk about three books a guest loves, one book they don't, what they're reading lately, and we talk about what they may enjoy reading next. But we make it up as we go.

SHANNAN: Anniemcloskey422 from Instagram ask, "How many hours does it take to make an episode, all that stuff, and prep time?" I laughed when I saw this one.

[00:08:45] ANNE: Really?

SHANNAN: Yes.

ANNE: Tell me more about that impulse.

SHANNAN: I was like, "Oh, we're pretty good numbered. This might be the last episode we ever make.

ANNE: Oh my gosh, that was exactly my reaction. Like if our 400th turns out to be our last, we're going to trace it back to doing this math right here. Annie, thank you for a good question that might end our podcast. And Annie was just on the show in Episode 391: habits of a happy reader. Oh my gosh, you know, we need to share a story about Annie's dad sending her a trophy after she was on the show.

SHANNAN: Oh wow. How do you know about this?

ANNE: Oh my gosh. So exciting. So exciting. Okay, so we did the math and now I want to cry. I don't know. Shannan, were you surprised to see these numbers?

SHANNAN: No, I was not.

ANNE: Really? I thought it was going to be closer to 12. Okay, readers-

SHANNAN: Oh, no.

ANNE: ...get a number in your head right now. Just remember I am a rose colored glasses Pollyanna optimist.

SHANNAN: She is.

ANNE: Mm-hmm. ...who plans for the best-case scenario and has to force herself to account for things like reality.

SHANNAN: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:51] ANNE: Okay, so we have six different team members who need to work on each individual episode, which is different from global planning. You know, like, where do we want to go with the show in general? What themes do we want for this season? For each individual episode, six individuals, 26 to 32 hours. Oh, if you couldn't understand that angsty voice, 26 to 32 hours an episode. And that doesn't include things like annual and seasonal planning, our team meetings, both for the podcast and for the whole team, for vetting those submissions. Shannan, you're not included in that, but you spend time each week vetting those submissions.

SHANNAN: No, not each week. I'm saving you money. I do it all in one go. Only about once a month.

ANNE: So this is a really good time to thank you all for listening and supporting our show in that way and our patrons for financially supporting the show.

SHANNAN: Absolutely.

[00:10:56] ANNE: The podcast that we conceived of... I mean, it's not Radiolab. No one's under any illusions about that. But we do produce it with love and care and thoughtfulness. And one of the things that means is that it does take a lot of time. And time is expensive. Time is really expensive. We cannot do this without you.

So thank you so much for those ratings and reviews. They really help. For those of you who financially support our show at our regular level or our generous support level, I hope you're feeling really good right now about making all this happen each week. We truly are a listener-supported podcast and are so grateful that we can do this work every week, even though 32 hours an episode makes us want to cry.

SHANNAN: All right. Moving on from that, shall we?

ANNE: Oh, yes. Let's pretend that never happened.

SHANNAN: Suzanne in an email said, "How do you keep books you read 4 to 5 plus years ago in mind? I've always wondered if Anne has read all of the books that she's recommended." I would like to know the answer to this question.

[00:12:05] ANNE: Suzanne, that's such a good question, because one of the problems I do really have with organization in general is if I can't see it, it does not exist. So before I sit down to record an episode with any reader, I do a visual review of just all the books that are out there in the world and on myself. Like I'll stroll through my library and put my eyes on all the titles I can. And I'll do that with all the bookshelves in the house, and then I'll scroll through my reading journal and my spreadsheets and my reading logs just to be reminded of the possibilities.

I haven't read every book I recommend for every guest. If I did, that would really limit some of the guests that we'd be able to invite on the show because my reserves of like horror reads and sci-fi reads are not nearly as deep as they are for readers who want to talk about, say, family sagas, which I've read a thousand of them. But we don't want to just have the guest reflect my reading taste. So those are two really important things.

[00:13:07] And coming up with book recommendations for people with different interests, I think that the blessing and curse for me is that I am not a linear thinker. I am not an analytical thinker, as you can probably tell the way that I was really surprised at that math just now. But I am very good at making connections between seemingly unrelated things.

So this podcast, by I think unconscious design, really leans into that ability. It's obviously not algorithmically driven, these recommendations. I'm recommending books that feel like an intuitive fit based on sometimes really strange things and things that are hard to articulate and capture, like the mood, the vibe. You know, I can't really explain why it just feels like a title you would enjoy based on this whisper-thin premise. So have we answered Suzanne's question?

SHANNAN: That is how.

ANNE: That is how we do it.

[00:14:06] SHANNAN: Let's move into the five or the twenty. We had a lot of questions about the most recommended books on the podcasts, and so our team did a little digging to find out what those were. And Anne, you don't know the answer to this, do you?

ANNE: I don't know the answer. I don't.

SHANNAN: So, there are two titles that we recommended a total of four times each and 12 titles that were recommended a total of three times. I think you ought to be proud of this, Anne, because I really thought that there would be more titles that were recommended over and over and over again and they're not. So let's start with the two titles that were recommended four times each. Can you take a guess?

ANNE: I mean, I can guess.

SHANNAN: Okay.

ANNE: I can guess. Let me just say that is by design. Once I feel like I'm recommending a title a lot, I stop recommending it, or it'll be the kind of thing where I'll talk with the guest after we're done recording and I'll be like, "Okay, I've recommended this title too much on the show to include it there. But if you haven't yet read Becky Chambers, I really think that you would enjoy exploring their body of work. That sounds like a really good fit for you."

SHANNAN: Okay.

[00:15:25] ANNE: I'm going to say Station Eleven and Lonesome Dove.

SHANNAN: No.

ANNE: And maybe Elizabeth Alexander.

SHANNAN: No. I will say that Lonesome Dove was one of the books that you have recommended three times.

ANNE: Okay.

SHANNAN: But are you ready to know what they are now?

ANNE: I'm ready.

SHANNAN: Home Fire by Kamila Shamsie.

ANNE: Really?

SHANNAN: Mm-hmm.

ANNE: Okay.

SHANNAN: And the second book is The House of the Spirits by Isabel Allende.

ANNE: Really? Don't tell my daughter, she hates that book. She had to read it for school. Ah. It was not a win on the assigned reading front. No, I never would have. You could have given me 30 titles to guess, and I wouldn't have come up with either one of those.

SHANNAN: I didn't think those either. Now, the 12 titles that you recommended three times, I would have guessed as the ones that had been recommended four times. So the Cormoran Strike series was recommended, Every Heart a Doorway, Harry's Trees, and you said Lonesome Dove.

[00:16:34] ANNE: Okay. Oh, and there's The Light of the World by Elizabeth Alexander with three recommendations. Okay. Thank you, Holly, for gathering that data. Very surprised at what came out of my mouth over 400 episodes.

SHANNAN: What you did say, Station Eleven, was one of the guests' favorite books. So eight people have brought Station Eleven as a favorite book to the show.

ANNE: That's a lot.

SHANNAN: Yeah, I thought that was interesting.

ANNE: Everybody, when you send in your submission-

SHANNAN: Don't say Station Eleven.

ANNE: ...don't say Station Eleven. I love that book. And also we told you we're looking for variety, so you know what to do.

SHANNAN: You do. All right, let's talk a little bit about the evolution of What Should I Read Next?. We had a couple of questions along these lines. One that I was really interested in hearing from you is how has hosting the podcast changed for you over 400 episodes? And this is from Hannah, who was also on Episode 187: Traveling the world without leaving your hometown.

[00:17:36] ANNE: One of our alums. Hi, Hannah. I have to say I think the biggest change happened in the first couple of years. Like a big one at the six-month mark and then maybe at the three-month mark where I suddenly woke up and realized, "Wait, hang on, I've been asking myself like, am I allowed to do this? Can I do this? Can I approach it like that? Will they let me?" One day I was like, "Wait a second. Who do I think is in charge here?" So that's a little bit embarrassing but it was also really, really eye-opening.

And the other thing that has changed is just our team. Our team has grown. We've gotten a lot more specialized. I have so much more help with the logistics and the audio, and vetting submissions. I used to have that be entirely on me. And I think it's such a strength now that it's not just my eyes looking over things and that we have such a wonderful pool of readers to draw from for these conversations and that we have such an amazing team that we get to talk about like, what do we want for the show? What voices do we want to feature? What themes do we want to cover? Like, what do we want to do here? What do we want to make? I feel like that's such a strength.

[00:18:48] There is definitely something like fun and nimble and kind of, you know, like roll up your sleeves and get stuff done through with having it being a very small operation. I mean, don't get me wrong, we're still a small team, but to have talented readers and people that I trust and rely on to contribute to the show I think is good for... it's good for me, but I think it's really good for the show in general and for our listeners.

SHANNAN: Sarahkeanewilliams from Instagram had a question that I think is a good follow-up to what you just said. "In what ways do you hope to see What Should I Read Next, Modern Mrs. Darcy grow in the next few years?

ANNE: That's a good question. And it's one I think about a lot. In some ways, I feel like... I love our business and our podcast and our audience. I feel like we are big enough to be able to do what we want to do and to do it well and to serve our audience.

[00:19:42] But there's also so much flexibility that comes from having a strong base of support. Because growth often means income. And income means that even as we're facing uncertain like ad markets, we are able to pay for what we do, to pay for our team and our equipment and everything that makes the show worth listening to from our patrons' support and also from our ad revenue.

And ad revenue is looking pretty dicey for the foreseeable future in podcasting. And there is so much flexibility and also just confidence in our team, knowing our patrons are going to make sure that we don't have any problem staying in the black. So that is a tension I think about.

We also get a lot of encouragement from people that we partner with to do... like to start a TikTok account. We don't have a TikTok account, which I think would be a lot of fun. Like that's supposed to be good for podcast growth, but that's a lot of creative energy and it's not devoted to making a podcast. So I think about that tension.

[00:20:40] We'd love to do events again. We'll get back out there. Those are good for growth. They're also a lot of work. But they're fun.

And then marketing. Marketing is not making the show. It's a very different kind of focus and energy, but it could be good for the show. Again, I keep using the word tension because I think it's a healthy tension. But those are things I think about.

But it is really great to hear from readers, like, finding the show did good things for my reading life. And I would like to reach readers who would be happy they did find the show so it could do good things for their reading life.

SHANNAN: Right. Because that's what the show does, I feel like. It connects you to a bookish community.

And we got an email from Julie, and I'm going to read it here. "I am a 'What Should I Read Next Podcast' completist, having found Anne's blog right around the time the podcast started. I was already an avid reader, but the blog and podcast over the years have definitely leveled up my reading hobby. 🙂

[00:21:40] An earlier episode about someone who took a special birthday trip with friends to different bookstores greatly influenced my own birthday celebration when I turned 40. It was the summer of 2020, and, like all of us, I was very much missing dear friends around the world.

So for my 40th birthday, I wrote 40 different women who have influenced my life and asked for book recommendations from them. These were childhood friends, past co-workers, family members, mentors, and current friends. Some shared one book, and some shared many recommendations.

That list guided my reading for the next year. It was fun to read some new titles and re-read some old favorites. Of course, it also gave me time to connect with dear readers and talk about books. Thanks so much for all you do! Any time someone asks me what I'm reading, I recommend the podcast and blog. Happy 400th episode. Julie Woolery."

ANNE: Aw, thank you, Julie.

SHANNAN: And I think Julie is referring to our team member Donna's episode, Episode 83: An epic birthday bookstore road trip.

[00:22:46] ANNE: That episode has inspired so many people to do their own birthday book project. I love it. That's the gift that keeps on giving. Thank you, Donna.

SHANNAN: And I propose, Anne, that you ask 400 people from this podcast to recommend a book for you. What do you think?

ANNE: I think, oh my goodness, my reading list. But also, isn't that basically what I've done? I come away from every episode with at least one book I want to read next, and sometimes it's more like 11.

SHANNAN: And we're going to talk about that later.

ANNE: I can't wait.

SHANNAN: That is actually a question. All right. That was behind the scenes. So now we're going to talk about reading tips. So there's a question that I kind of want to know the answer to. So, listeners, y'all are on point with these questions.

Roxannewerly from Instagram wants to know, how do you decide which books to keep, give, and donate? I have a hard time saying goodbye.

Then Pnw_book_geek, also from Instagram, says, "How do you cultivate and cull your personal library?"

[00:23:54] ANNE: Ooh, these are good questions. I'm in the right mindset to answer it because I just did a big cull because the shelves were overflowing. I have a hard time saying goodbye too, but when I can't find anything, I know it's time to regroup. And that often looks like taking off oh, so many tote bags full of books to the library and Little Free Libraries to donate.

For me, I always try to find more space, like in the guest room in the basement to keep the books. But at a certain point, they do need to get out of the house. I think about hanging on to books that I want to have on hand, either because I want to reference them in my line of work because I want to take a picture of them, because I want to read them again, I want to read them for the first time.

When I'm thinking about what to—my mom used the word 'emancipate' when she was getting rid of things—what I want to set free into the world to find hopefully a happy home with another reader, I think about what would be difficult to replace. Like if there's a book I've been hanging on to because I theoretically want to read it, but I can't foresee myself wanting or needing to read it anytime soon, I'll ask myself, "How easily could I replace this? Was this hard to find? Is it out of print? Is it a special edition?" I'll probably hang onto it. But if I could grab it at the library or my bookstore, if worst came to worst and I had to buy it, not that I don't buy books every week, if I could replace it easily, then I have a much easier time letting it go.

[00:25:24] SHANNAN: Okay. Speaking of letting go, we had a few questions about... can I say DNF-ing books?

ANNE: Mm-hmm.

SHANNAN: And one that I found particularly interesting is, how many books do you start and not finish in a month? And then do you keep track of the books that you would DNF? And this is from Janey and Lisamarie, both on Instagram.

ANNE: That's a great question. It's a lot. And by a lot, I mean, it's probably like dozens, plural. But some of these DNFs, like books I did not finish, are probably not the kind of books that you typically think of as DNF. Like when I'm hosting a guest on the podcast, if I haven't read their three books, I typically read the first 20 pages of every book. And even if I have read the book, if it's been a long time, I'll often read the first 20 pages just to remind myself what it feels like to read that book.

So I don't abandon it at the end because it wasn't good, but because I was reading it for a very specific purpose. And I do not log books that I don't read more than 20 or so pages off. But I do start a lot of books that I don't end up finishing, especially when I'm reading books for things like the Fall Book Preview, or the Summer Reading Guide, I'm looking to discover and I'll take a chance on a lot of things.

[00:26:42] And one of the things that lets me take that chance is knowing I don't have to see it through to the end if I feel like it's not going to be a good fit for the purposes I'm looking for right now. And sometimes just as a reader, I'll think, "Oh, I don't want to read that right now. Actually, I don't think I want to read that ever." And then I'll move on to the next book. Even if I'm reading it because I thought I would really love it, not for a job-related purpose. I am Team DNF and have been for a very long time.

SHANNAN: Well, you got me to DNF books, so, yay.

ANNE: I love that you followed that up with yay and a big smile.

SHANNAN: Oh, yes, absolutely.

ANNE: Do I need to add the typical caveat here about, like, it is often worth it to finish books that you do not like as a reader. And some good books are hard books. And also that doesn't mean that sometimes I feel like putting that book down for now or forever is 100% the best choice for my reading life.

SHANNAN: All right.

[00:27:39] ANNE: So we got some great stories from listeners about their reading tips, especially I love this one about a library tip in action from Emily.

SHANNAN: Yes. She says, "Hi Anne! Congrats on 400 episodes! I wanted to share that this summer I followed one of your tips for library holds. I put in a suggestion for purchase at my local library in Kitchener Waterloo, Canada for MMD's Summer Reading Guide pick Emily Habeck's Sharkheart. The library approved my suggestion and purchased the book and I was first on the list to get it! And I loved this book! So thanks MMD team; I have heard this tip a lot from you over the years, but this was the first time I have put in a patron request at my local library. Happy Fall Reading!"

ANNE: Yay! Oh, Emily, I'm so glad to hear that. I'm so glad you got to put that tip in action and it worked out so well for you. I feel like now is a good time to mention another backlist episode that we point readers to all the time that they say, Oh my gosh, this changed my relationship with my library.

And that is Kari Sweeney way back in 2018, it's Episode 153: Revolutionizing your reading life, 10 minutes at a time. And that 10 minutes is her daily library relationship management technique. I just made up that phrase. That's not how Kari talks about it. But I think it's still worth a listen. But that's amazing, Emily. Thank you for sharing that story.

[00:29:12] SHANNAN: Yes. You know, anyone who follows me on Goodreads could probably see what's coming up, because when I get the draft of the Fall Book Preview or the Summer Reading Guide, I immediately go and say, “what to read, what to read, what to read?." And then I go to my library and request them all.

ANNE: I love it.

SHANNAN: Inside tip for all you listeners out there. Want to know what Anne's thinking about? Follow Shannan. All right.

So we're going to move to some... At the beginning of the episode, you called it delightfully random things. And I was like, Yes, that is what this is. So we have some questions that are delightfully random.

ANNE: I love it.

SHANNAN: Emweidl from Instagram wants to know, "What kind of music does Anne listen to?"

ANNE: Ooh.

SHANNAN: I want to know if you have time to listen to music.

[00:30:15] ANNE: We are a pro-music household. So we've got that Sonos going when we're getting ready or making dinner. I'm not always in charge of the remote, though. So, like what do I listen to? I mean, it's a whole lot of Taylor, Gracie Abrams, hip hop, show tunes.

If I'm in charge of the remote, it's probably all country, I love indie. My favorite work album to listen to right now, like when I'm, you know, writing and doing stuff is Second Nature by Lucius, but I'm sure that will rotate in a few months. Oh my gosh, Gregory Alan Isakov, also amazing music if I turn it down so I can't hear the lyrics.

SHANNAN: All right. So we're going to switch from music to ice cream. Readingandcookinggovern wants to know what's your favorite icecream flavor. I don't think I know this.

ANNE: I'm not sure that I know this. Key lime pie in the summer, cinnamon in the winter. Let's say cookies and cream for the rest of the year. What about you, Shannan?

SHANNAN: Oh-

ANNE: Because I know you have feelings.

[00:31:17] SHANNAN: Of course. Ice cream is my favorite dessert. I would give up every dessert on the face of the planet except ice cream. It's one of the reasons I will never be vegan. I was vegan growing up for years, but now that I've had ice cream, I will never be vegan because I need ice cream made with cow's milk. That just sounds kind of gross to say but...

Anyway, I think I like salted caramel ice cream or ice cream that has salted caramel in it. In the summer. I really did enjoy, when they can get it right, Maggie Moo’s chocolate birthday cake ice cream. But they've been kind of being iffy on it. And sometimes it's good and sometimes it's not. It's so heartbreaking.

ANNE: I know. We had a really disappointing team conversation about how they were letting you down.

SHANNAN: Yeah, they were. So, yeah, those are my favorite. If it's got salted caramel in it, then I'm probably going to like it.

[00:32:19] ANNE: I wish this was the kind of thing where we could say, Listeners, you can express your love and appreciation for Shannan's work by shipping it to her. But it's ice cream. I know dry ice is the thing but still. Still. It's a lot easier to send bookmarks.

SHANNAN: It'll probably melt. Okay. So let's move on to more delightfully random things. We have from Ldugie2018, they want to know, do you ever make appearances in Massachusetts?

ANNE: Not yet. I've never been to Massachusetts, but I would love to. And it wasn't that long ago that Louisville added a direct flight to Boston. And every time I see that billboard, I go, Mhhhh. But I am going places in 2024. I know I'm going to have appearances in Michigan and Florida, and we might be working on some ideas behind the scenes as well.

So if you want to know about all that stuff, sign up for our newsletter. That's at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com/newsletter. We always share our events appearances, newsy news in that newsletter every week.

[00:33:27] Also, sometimes I come places because people invite me. So if you happen to work with an institution or a bookstore or an organization that does book events, I'd love to go to Massachusetts.

SHANNAN: Is one of the places you're going a book festival in 2024?

ANNE: Yes, unusual festivals, but yes. But that takes us to our next question from Jessica, doesn't it?

SHANNAN: It does. It does. She says, "Book Festivals sound so much fun! Do everyday readers attend or is it just for those in the industry? If so, what do you recommend?"

ANNE: Oh, I mean, there are some industry-specific events, but literary festivals are for readers. And I recommend going to try one. I would recommend not getting on an airplane for your first one, but seeing what's in your region and going to check it out.

And if you want to hear more about what the experience might be like, how to find them, where you can expect, how to plan your day, we did an episode after the Bookmarks Literary Festival with reader Christina McCormick. Its main feed Episode 354 and it's called Book Festivals for Beginners. Definitely worth a listen.

[00:34:34] SHANNAN: Kristenkess is going to turn the tables on us and asked, from Instagram, "What are three books you love and one book you don't?" And she was kind enough to say, "If Shannan could answer this, too, that would be fun."

ANNE: All right. Now, I have done this before for 'What should Anne read next?' episodes. You can search our archives. I answer this question and ask you all for your recommendations and you deliver. And it's lots of fun.

So, Shannan, I decided to go with books that I finished just in the past month. I went with two from our Fall Book Preview. They are Land of Milk and Honey by C Pam Zhang and Kids Run the Show, a French novel in translation by Delphine de Vigan. Also, I just finished the Rachel Incident by Caroline O'Donoghue, an Irish novel on audio. And I loved it.

I don't want to get real specific with the book I didn't like, but I'll tell you why I picked it up. I was reading another summer novel that had all kind of references to other books in the book world.

So there's the scene at a bookstore where one reader to another recommends a little debut that's a family saga. And based on that, I was like, "Oh my gosh, I'll read that." And I did. And I would not have described it as a family saga. It would have been coming of age and it dealt with mental health topics in ways that were just like a little bit like aaaah, I don't know if I should be reading this right now.

[00:36:10] It wasn't what I expected and I didn't love the story. And somebody is probably putting those vague pieces together and thinking what it is. But, but, but, but we'll talk about it over coffee, but I'm not going to title it on the air. But when you promised me a family saga like I want a family saga.

SHANNAN: You do.

ANNE: I love coming-of-age stories, but it was not what I was expecting. And I think expecting for good reason. Just not in the right place. Okay, Shannan, let's hear yours.

SHANNAN: So my inaugural episode is 179: Life is short & my TBR is way too long. And in that episode I selected books that I liked and wanted to read more of. So they were not all-time favorites. I do have a favorite shelf, so I just chose three that are sticking out in my mind right now.

So favorites include Their Eyes Were Watching God by Zora Neale Hurston. I've read that twice, and it was even better the second time. So I'm like, "Yep, this is definitely a favorite." I've already mentioned A Psalm For The Wild-Built By Becky Chambers. That is an all-time favorite.

[00:37:17] The one that is really sticking in my mind is How to Keep House While Drowning by KC Davis, because I just did 'One Great Book' style bonus episode for Patreon recently.

ANNE: It's so good.

SHANNAN: All right. Book I didn't. I'm actually going to name it here because I have a blog post on science fiction and fantasy and I hint to DNF’ing a book there. So if you listen to this episode, you'll know what it was and you'll know why, if you read the blog post. And the book is The Book That Wouldn't Burn by Mark Lawrence.

ANNE: Is this the part where I don't ask you follow-up questions?

SHANNAN: Oh, you can ask as many follow-up questions as you like.

ANNE: All right, tell us more. Was it not a good fit? Was a bad timing. Did you think it was horrendous?

SHANNAN: No, I did not think it was horrendous. The blog post goes into a lot more detail about why. But I basically, in the blog post, give you tips for reading sci-fi fantasy for beginners, and that is not one for beginners. So I didn't want to struggle through it.

[00:38:30] ANNE: That's very insightful. I can't wait to read this post.

SHANNAN: All right. So, you know people are asking about Daisy, Anne. We've got a few about Daisy. "How old is she? How did you get her?" ask Kellylelly3 from Instagram. And Bookishplans just say, "Tell us everything there is to know about Daisy."

ANNE: Aw. Daisy is our family's yellow lab. We got her in late 2016 when she was tiny for a lab and looked like such a puppy. Oh, my gosh. Sometimes we'll look at the old photos and be like, "What a little baby."

She's the sweetest. We think she's wonderful. We need her to live forever, though she did get both of her rear knees, her back leg knees replaced last year. She loves to walk. She gets very excited when I get on Instagram and just talking very loudly to no one, into the camera. She always loves to come running and say hi.

She loves it when we read because that means that we're probably sitting down and she gets to curl up at our feet and just chill. She really likes to chill. She likes when we watch movies, when we read. She really likes to go on walks, too. She loves tennis balls and peanut butter.

[00:39:40] SHANNAN: You're making me miss my dog.

ANNE: You're welcome, and I'm sorry. All right. Now we have more listeners' stories about book projects. Shannan, would you share this lovely email from Courtney?

SHANNAN: Well, Courtney begins the email by saying, "I am particularly susceptible to a book project." And before I continue, Anne, what is a book project?"

ANNE: Okay, that's an interesting question because I feel like doesn't everybody... No. Probably not everybody knows a book project. I would say that this is when you as a reader, for fun, for your own nerdy purposes, because you need organization and motivation, or because you just l to deep dive whatever rabbit hole strikes your fancy, embarks on an organized reading plan with a certain end in mind.

Okay, Shannan, I feel like you're more of an expert than me because you did that amazing Patreon bonus episode with Hannah and Patti where you talked about your own book projects and interviewed them about theirs. So how did I do?

[00:40:45] SHANNAN: You did excellent. The thing that makes it a book project is there is an end in mind.

ANNE: Yes, there's an end. It ends. It starts and ends. And also there's an end in mind. That's so good.

SHANNAN: Yes, there is an end, E-N-D. So something you're going to do in the reading life with an ending.

So let's continue Courtney's email. She said, "In 2019, I did the Century of Books after hearing it in Episode 168. At that point, I had never read 100 books in the year before, so it was an ambitious challenge and I got about 92 of them in.

This year I am reading the complete works of Shakespeare in 5 pages a day a la Laura Vanderkam in Episode 359. I just finished Romeo and Juliet and am on track to finish early. I have loved this project so much I get sad thinking about missing my morning cuppa with the Bard next year. I'm still debating how to keep this beautiful morning routine going: picking another big book or author's work for next year, or just starting over with Shakespeare again!"

[00:41:48] Also, had to share that my husband thinks our journaling zooms are the most hilarious thing he's ever heard of - everyone on Zoom independently reading or writing! But I just love the community and the dedicated time to devote to reading! Other than book projects it's my favorite! Thanks a million! Courtney Lyons."

Courtney is referring to our 'Join us for journaling' segments in Modern Mrs. Darcy Book Club, which we're going to have after we finish recording this, Anne.

ANNE: Mm-hmm. Yeah, we are. Shannan often leads those and they're just... I mean, it's a time to go hang out with your book people. And some people catch up on their reading journals, thus they join us for journaling. Some people read. Some people honestly actively engage in the Zoom chat the entire time, and we welcome that as well. They're a good time for Modern Mrs. Darcy Book Club.

SHANNAN: We do. We do. Okay. We ask the questions now about book selection and reading for the show. And we may have hit on some of these before, but let's take a look at what we got.

[00:42:47] Heather wants to know, "how does Anne even begin narrowing down what books to read!? Be it for reading guides, just to suggest on the podcast, etc. I have a hard time and I'm sure you're all even more tapped into new & upcoming releases, so many books & so little time!"

ANNE: That is so true. And I think one of the things that does make it harder, like Heather, you said you had a hard time with the abundance, which it sounds like can feel overwhelming sometimes instead of just glorious, is that there are so many books and there are so many books that we are aware of as readers.

Like when I was a 20-something reader, I went to the bookstore and I went to the library and maybe once a month I got a book review like magazine in the mail. But I just didn't know about as many books as I know about now. Which it's a blessing to know about so many books, but it does come with associated problems.

[00:43:51] I'm very conscious as I look at what is coming out of what purpose I might want to read particular titles for because that really does shape what I choose. If it's for Fall Book Preview, where we want to highlight books that are really big in industry this season that are shaping the conversation is different than a book that I want to take on a beach vacation. So just knowing what purpose I'm looking for at any given time is very helpful.

And then I'm lucky to have... not just lucky. We've also shaped this whole enterprise, that if I'm reading to find books I love, then I'm reading books that I can suggest to podcast guests and use in blog posts, and share in our reading guides and Spring Book Preview.

And something that I think has really changed in these 400 episodes we've done is in talking to so many readers who enthusiastically recommend books that I would not have gravitated to on my own back in 2011. I have really brought in my taste and learn how to enjoy and appreciate books that would have been way out my lane back then but that are either firmly in it or less a deviation right now.

[00:44:58] We also keep really careful records. Like a big project we've been working on behind the scenes is moving our Google spreadsheet situation into a Notion database, and that is really helping me feel like I can thoughtfully engage with the possibilities instead of scanning a whole list of titles going, "Oh, I'm never going to get through these. What do I do?"

So organization is really helpful here, which I would like to repeat would not be possible without my amazing team that excels at that. Because I don't own my own. I can use this database, but it would never have occurred to me to create this system that can filter and sort in all the ways it can. And I'm so grateful. It's really Baylee and Brigid on our team who've been running that project, and I'm so grateful because it helps. It helps a lot.

SHANNAN: All right. So remember when I said, "Oh, we're going to talk about this later?" Well, later is here, listeners. Readwithnean wants to know, how often do you end up reading one of the guests' favorites? And do you have any that you really loved?

[00:46:02] ANNE: Oh, gosh. I'm going to say more often than not. Truly, there is no stronger recommendation than having a reader who's telling you about their tastes. You can get a feel for what they enjoy and what they don't, and think about how that aligns with your own reading life or doesn't just talking about a book that really meant something to them.

Sometimes I end up reading these... like when I'm preparing for them to come on the show, like what can happen is I'll see like, "Oh, this guest loves this certain title. I've been meaning to read that. Why not now?” Because, you know, we all have these books we've been meaning to read for a long time. And sometimes it just takes a little nudge, like a reminder of the book's existence. If it catches us at the right moment, the time can be right then.

Sometimes I read it afterwards because it's something they like, particularly said that made me think like, "Oh, now that'll happen." Sometimes, I think, "Well, I didn't think that was for me, but that sounds really good."" And I don't love everything. But I feel like nothing I've read because the guest recommended it hasn't been a worthwhile reading experience.

[00:47:07] But some that really stand out that I've read recently are Once There Were Wolves by Charlotte McConaghy. I read that after a guest, not for the first time, gushed about it. The Book of Delights by Ross Gay.

SHANNAN: I have an interesting tidbit about The Book of Delights.

ANNE: Oh. Please share.

SHANNAN: I started that and DNF'ed it, and then I got The Book of (More) Delights, which is his follow-up, I guess, to it.

ANNE: Yeah.

SHANNAN: And I love it. I don't understand. I think it was probably just the time, like you said, the right time in the right moment to read the book.

ANNE: I am so surprised that you even picked up The Book of (More) Delights after DNF-ing The Book of Delights. What happened there?

SHANNAN: I don't know. This is not about me.

ANNE: I mean, I'm so glad you did.

SHANNAN: But now I'm going to go back and read The Book of Delights after I finish The Book of (More) Delights because I'm like, maybe I'm in a different headspace and a different time in my life. So readers, yeah, that can happen.

[00:48:09] ANNE: The Book of Delights is delightful, but there are also some real hard things in The Book of Delights.

SHANNAN: There are.

ANNE: I read The Book of Delights in one gulp, but I parceled out The Book of (More) Delights, I think, because I read it in print instead of on audio like I did The Book of Delights. And I really loved it in that format. Just saying. That was in our Fall Book Preview.

The English Understand Wool by Helen DeWitt, I don't know that I would have picked that one up had a reader not enthusiastically recommended it. That's a short, weird, little British novel, Normal People by Sally Rooney. A guest finally nudged me to read Sally Rooney.

I've read a lot of sci-fi on guest recommendations because that's an area that I knew I wanted to branch out into but didn't feel as confident choosing my own books in that genre. And that's what the podcast is great for. And building that confidence and giving you a place to start when you're exploring.

SHANNAN: Yes, that's what the community is great for, honestly, because our long-time producer Brenna Frederick introduced me to sci-fi and fantasy, and now I'm writing a blog post about it.

[00:49:12] ANNE: I mean, that happens all the time, and not just with our listeners. That happens on our team as well.

SHANNAN: It does.

ANNE: All right. We have the best What Should I Read Next Memory to share to wrap up our 400th.

SHANNAN: And it is from Kellie Roberts. And I think I know this Kellie, so hi Kellie.

ANNE: Yes. Because she flew across the country to meet us in person at Bookmarks NC.

SHANNAN: She did.

ANNE: We love you, Kellie. Hi.

SHANNAN: We love you, Kellie. Hello. Kelly says, "Hi MMD friends! I wanted to share my favorite (well now it is, though it was pretty terrifying in the moment!) WSIRN story in honor of the 400th episode.

I live in Southern CA and I used to drive to Utah every January for the Sundance Film Festival and to visit friends. I was ready to drive back home at the beginning of February 2016, after the festival ended. I delayed my departure until after the snowstorm that came in while I was there ended, but within 2 hours of leaving, I drove into a huge blizzard that was essentially a whiteout. I could see maybe 20 feet in front of me.

[00:50:24] I'm from New England, so learned to drive in snow, but without snow tires and not having done it for well over a decade, it was fairly terrifying. I decided that music would be too jarring while I was white-knuckle driving through this storm, so I put WSIRN on. I'd already listened to the first 4 episodes (all there were then) a couple of times, and on my drive through the blizzard I listened to those 4 episodes over and over again, to stay focused and get through that miserable situation.

Anne's voice is so calm and peaceful and I love the book discussions so much, that it was the perfect thing to have on. It saved my sanity during those terrible hours, and now I can recite Jamie Golden's episode pretty much by memory. And now I fly to Utah when I go in the winter.

Thank you, Anne and WSIRN! Happy 400th!"

ANNE: Oh, wow. Kelly, thank you for the well-wishes. And oh my goodness. I hate driving in the weather. Shannan, you know this about me.

SHANNAN: Yes, I do. I do know this about you.

[00:51:29] ANNE: And I cannot imagine. But I am so humbled and honored and just grinning to know that those four episodes got you through. Look, we made you 396 more so that you were ready for any weather situation. But I sincerely hope that you never encounter one.

SHANNAN: Yes. What a great way to close out this episode.

ANNE: Oh, my goodness. That was so much fun. Shannan, thank you so much for joining me for this special episode and for welcoming readers into a wonderful conversation.

SHANNAN: Thank you for having me.

[00:52:03] ANNE: And readers, I hope you enjoyed listening today. Thank you again to everyone who sent in a question or shared a memory or a story. You can find links to the episodes we mentioned today and all the books over on our show notes page, as always. Those are at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com.

You can follow on Instagram for regular peeks behind the scenes, photos of Shannan and my recording set up here, which is not that pretty, but maybe you want to see what it looks like, photos and videos of Daisy running to the camera when I'm getting ready to Instagram live. That is on our show account @whatshouldireadnext. And my page is @annebogel.

Sign up for that newsletter so you know what's happening, whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com/newsletter.

Thank you to the people who make this show happen. What Should I Read Next? is created by our entire team. We've talked about Will Bogel, Holly Wielkoszewski, Studio D Podcast Production, Shannan Malone, our social media manager is Leigh Kramer, our Patreon community manager is Sara Aeder. We've talked about Brigid Misselhorn and Baylee Pendleton today who are doing that Notion database transfer. This is a team effort and I'm so grateful that we get to do it together.

Readers, that is it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening.

And as Rainer Maria Rilke said, "Ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading." Happy reading, everyone.