Knitting unraveled my reading life

[00:00:00] PATTY BROWN: We call those WIPs works in progress. There's other knitters that they will only knit one at a time. And we call people like that monogamous knitters. My reading life though I would say that I'm a monogamous reader.

ANNE BOGEL: Hey readers, I'm Anne Bogel and this is What Should I Read Next?. Welcome to the show that's dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader, what should I read next? We don't get bossy on this show. What we will do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read. Every week we'll talk all things books and reading and do a little literary matchmaking with one guest.

Readers, so many of you tell us that you struggle to read as much as you'd like, and today's guest is in that camp. Patty Brown has a range of hobbies she enjoys in addition to reading, like cycling and enjoying the outdoors in her Bend, Oregon, home. But the passion that most often keeps her from her books is knitting.

[00:01:08] Patty is not entirely sad about this. Knitting is something she loves and wants to continue enjoying. But she'd also like to revive the reading that knitting has crowded out. When Patty shared her submission with our team, she mentioned that she's looking for reads so compelling she won't be tempted to pick up her knitting instead. But when it comes to finding these books, she is stuck. In part, because it's been such a long time since she's been an active reader, and her recent ventures into the bookstore looking for inspiration, they've backfired.

Patty says when faced with all those options, she feels like a deer in the headlights and ends up leaving empty-handed. I'm excited to introduce Patty to books that are right for this moment in her reading life, as well as techniques that might make her feel more comfortable the next time she visits her neighborhood bookstore.

Let's get to it.

Patty, welcome to the show.

PATTY: Thank you, Anne. It's so nice to finally meet you.

ANNE: Oh, the pleasure is mine. Our team was really excited about your submission and I'm excited to dig in today. Patty, tell our listeners a little bit about yourself. We'd love to give them a glimpse of who you are as a person and a reader today.

[00:02:14] PATTY: My husband and I, we live in Bend, Oregon. Prior to that, we lived in the valley in Eugene. We moved there right after college. We've been drawn to Bend for a long time. In the early 20s, we would come over here every weekend to go Nordic skiing at Mt. Bachelor. And then when mountain biking became a thing, we started coming here in the summers, too.

ANNE: Oh, that sounds amazing. Will is a big cyclist and mountain biker, and I occasionally will do ten miles max on the weekend. But oh, he's going to listen to this and want to jet out of your way immediately.

PATTY: Oh, nice. One day we were out mountain biking and we just happened upon this little community. There weren't a ton of houses yet. It was mostly empty lots. But the houses that were

here were... they were just organically nestled into the landscape and all their architecture was extremely unique. It was not some kind of a planned development.

[00:03:16] And then I landed a job with a health insurance company that also had an office in Bent so then I knew that I could transfer over here. So in 2016, we sold our home in Eugene, we moved into a rental in Bend, and I continue to work. Well, my husband, he designed from the ground up our new home, and he, you know, did all the project management in a large part built our home.

I retired this spring. I still work for my company about 30 hours a month. I mostly mentor some of the fresh young talent, and I also solve some obscure software problems for an old system like only the veteran would know.

ANNE: Yeah, it sounds like you carry the institutional memory.

PATTY: Yeah.

ANNE: Patty, I know you're also a fervent knitter. Would you say more about that? I was surprised to hear in your submission what that has meant for your reading life.

[00:04:20] PATTY: You know, I used to be more of a regular reader and then somewhere in my early mid-30s, I think I just got this nesting instinct and I just decided to learn how to knit. I just couldn't put it down. So it was like 90s somewhere. That was before the days of audiobooks.

So my choice was always knitting. I was just fascinated by it. I wanted to make my own sweaters. So it really just pretty much stopped my reading life altogether.

You know, there was a period of time right when all The Lord of the Rings movies were coming out, we started with the first book of the series. And my husband would actually sit around... You know, we'd sit around the fire in the evening in the winter, and he would read to me while I knit.

[00:05:20] So he would read one book every winter before the movies came out and then we'd run to the theater as soon as we finished and then go watch the movie. You know, those were books that I never would have read on my own. I still wouldn't today. So I'm really grateful that he did that for me. But then, of course, he also got a couple of sweaters out of a deal. So yeah.

ANNE: So, Patty, you told us that unit every time you sit down. Actually, I noticed how similar this was to the way many readers often talk about books. There are too many things to make and not enough time. So you haven't finished nearly as many books these past few years as you're used to, even though you used to really enjoy becoming engrossed in page-turners that you couldn't put down. Now it sounds like it's your knitting you can't put down.

PATTY: It is. It's kind of my go-to comfort space. I like the feeling of actually creating something and producing something. You know, once I've worn myself out physically for the day, when I sit down, I still want to do something purposeful. And it just gives me a lot of satisfaction. There's just so many things to do.

[00:06:41] You know, I discovered your podcast and I learned more about readers, and I just see so many parallels between readers and knitters. It's like you guys have a TBR, you know, and as knitters we have a queue of patterns. Your library, you know, the equivalent of that is our yarn stash.

We have yarns that we've purchased and sometimes you forget why you even purchased them in the first place, because your tastes change. But you have yarn sometimes just sitting for years. You fell in love with something at the time, but then maybe you're not quite sure where you were in that space when you bought it. I do try to keep my stash to a minimum.

Then there's other parallels like, you know, there's people that are reading multiple books at a time, and there's other people that just read one book at a time. In knitting, we have the same thing. We have people that have multiple projects going on in the needles. We call those WIPs

works in progress. But there's other knitters that they will only knit one at a time. And we call people like that... they are monogamous knitters.

[00:07:59] So I tend to have several projects on the needles. So I have something depending on my mood. I have something that's a little more challenging, something that's portable I can take in the car. I just like to have these multiple things going. My reading life, though, I would say that I'm a monogamous reader.

ANNE: And a monogamous reader who, it sounded to me, is really struggling to find that love you used to have for the written word when you want the book to be as engaging as these other projects you're working on that are keeping your hands busy.

PATTY: I think I don't want to feel like I'm wasting my time. I really enjoy reading, but it's been so long since I've been a reader. I want to make sure that what I read is something that is going to be fulfilling. As I inch towards full retirement, I want to make sure that I keep my brain engaged. And I do enjoy a great story.

[00:08:58] Lately, in the past few years, I've kind of made the mistake of thinking, Okay, I just want something simple and easy to read. And then I'll just pick up a book that seems that way, that seems sort of superficial, but I come away ultimately feeling kind of unsatisfied. Like I can spend my time watching an hour and a half movie. That's not a big deal. But reading a book is a larger investment. I just am really struggling to find what genres and what types of books really fit into what I'm searching for.

The other thing that's interesting is, it might seem like audiobooks would be a natural fit for somebody like me as a knitter, but when I was preparing for this podcast, I thought I would cheat a little bit. You know, I do that in air quotes. Because it's been so long since I've read these books that I put on my list that I wanted to remind myself of why I liked them.

[00:10:11] So I called a couple of audiobooks up and ran the previews and I just couldn't do it. And I realized it was because just as when you're reading you, you know, the author paints these images for you, and you conjure up your own image in your own mind. I think, for me, the voices are a part of that too. So, if the narrator doesn't sound like what I pictured in my head, I just can't do it.

That being said, I'm still open to audiobooks. And I'm sure there's plenty of narrators out there that I would enjoy. I think I might do better if it was narrated by the author or if it was a book that I hadn't read yet.

ANNE: That's very interesting, Patty. I didn't expect you to be open to audiobooks. And I hear you. I'm sure many listeners are thinking, "Oh, my gosh, I know the obvious solution." So thank you for telling us why that hasn't been as rewarding as you had hoped.

[00:11:16] I'm also wondering if, especially because of the way you emphasized how you want to physically pick up a paper book in your submission, that there's a tactile component to your endeavors that you really enjoy and would like to preserve.

PATTY: Yeah. I've tried reading books on my iPad and I pretty much ultimately end up not finishing them. I just don't like looking at the screen.

ANNE: That might be my least favorite way to read. I actually might prefer reading on my phone over reading on the iPad. The one exception is there's a gorgeous full-color cookbook and for whatever reason I want to borrow it instantly from the library or it's on like a Kindle sale for $1.99 and I want to try it before I get the hardcover. They look nice in that large format. But otherwise, it adds a whole lot of screen for the words.

PATTY: Yeah. And it's also portable. I like that you can pass it along once you're done, or sell it back to the used bookstore. I love the used bookstore.

[00:12:19] ANNE: Patty, that's interesting that you mentioned the bookstore, because I know that there was a problem we wanted to tackle today from your submission. You asked the question, describing your experience going into bookstores these days, "How come when I go to a bookstore, I'm like a deer in headlights and end up leaving empty-handed?"

So I'd love to talk about that a little more and see if we can, I don't know, maybe give you some tips to put some more purpose into your approach that helps it feel more manageable. If that's what you need. I don't know. Tell me about it.

PATTY: Well, it's because I haven't been a reader for so long. So I know that there have to be hundreds, if not thousands of four and five-star books out there for me. The way I see it, there's so many books out there, I should never have to dip below a four-star read. I just need help finding them.

[00:13:17] You know, I tried. There's a bookstore fairly nearby here and I walked in, there were all these pretty covers. I was surrounded by thousands of books, I read the back cover in a few of them and I just became so overwhelmed, I just walked out with nothing. I think in my head, I was actually running out screaming

ANNE: What was your dream scenario when you walked into the bookstore? What did you hope would happen?

PATTY: I don't know. I think I walked in very unprepared. I thought, "Okay, I need to find some book reviews." So I did go on to Goodreads and I read some reviews, just sort of pick some genres that I thought I might enjoy. I did ultimately pick out some books that I have read and I still have a couple

that I'm getting ready to read. So I just kind of, you know, settled down and tried to take a more logical approach to it. But I still feel like I need help and a little bit more guidance.

[00:14:34] ANNE: All right, well, let's do that today. And I'm so glad you sent in your submission. What Should I Read Next? is here to help real readers to find real books that they'll actually like to problem-solve real issues. I have to say I know we have a lot of knitters in our audience. We're

really happy to see their... I'm just gonna say one of their favorite hobbies elevated in this way and given some love.

So Patty, I love that your inclination was to go to explore and see what's out there when you decided that you wanted to bring reading into your regular rotation, to make it part of your life again. I know many of us have experienced that deer-in-the-headlights feeling. Like, a bookstore can just be a scene of glorious abundance. But if you don't know what you want, or what you're looking at, or what you're going to do when you walk through the door, it can feel overwhelming, instead of pleasantly, full of possibility.

Also, I want to say that I wonder if you're putting a lot of pressure on yourself. You said something about like you shouldn't have to dip below the four and five-star threshold for your reads. Because there's so many good books out there, but you just need to find them.

And if you're anything like me, that means you're reaching for that book in the bookstore going, "Is this good enough? Is this good enough? This has to be good enough. If I'm not sure it's good enough, I need to put it back."

[00:15:58] And I think as you get reacquainted with reading again, it sounds like you've grown and evolved as a person. You've had a lot of life experiences. You've watched a lot of good movies. The publishing landscape is different. There are options now that weren't there the last time you were reading books regularly.

And as you get reacquainted with your options, and with what your taste is like right now... I said reacquainted, but as you learn what your taste is like right now, you've never been this reader before, taking some chances and trying some things, that is how you will discover who you are right now as a reader.

And I hope by saying you'll kind of find some duds, I hope that you don't find that demoralizing but instead that it normalizes that reading is a process of discovery. And it is okay. And it doesn't mean that you have failed to read something that you end up hating. That's how you discover actually, you know what, I thought maybe I wanted to read that kind of book but nope, I'm wrong.

[00:16:57] I thought everybody told me they'd love this author and I would too. Nope, that's a data point I can use to move forward. And I think really viewing this season of your life as data gathering and experimentation could help.

Now do I hope that you pick up a book and the first book you pick up you like fall head over heels for and you neglect your sweater for three whole days? I wouldn't be sad about that. And that could happen. But that is not the expectation or promise that we're moving forward with. Does that all make sense?

PATTY: It does and I'm open to that. Just like with my knitting, if something isn't working, I am not hesitant to just stop and say, "Okay, this doesn't work for me, and just push it aside." So I think I will approach it in that way. But I definitely would like to explore these other genres, things that I might not expect to like.

[00:17:58] ANNE: I like that. And also I don't... I might be making some assumptions about knitters. But you can put down a project that it's not working. Or if you decide, "You know what, this

pattern doesn't actually make sense, put it down. But also, maybe sometimes you just need to consult with somebody who used the pattern and do they have any recommended advice?

Is this trickier than something you've attempted before? Like, can you get help from a fellow knitter? I don't want to imply that all books are really hard and you're going to need an expert to come in and help you. But sometimes you can get reassurance and encouragement instead of just putting the whole thing in the trash. I'm afraid all the knitters are gasping because you wouldn't actually do that with your project. It's a metaphor. It's just a metaphor.

PATTY: You know, the nice thing about knitting is, you know, if a project isn't working for me, either the pattern or the yarn isn't what I thought it was going to be... you know, I have knit entire sweaters and just put them on. So I don't like this and I just pull it out.

[00:18:58] You know, if something's not working for me, instead of allowing it to be a burden in my life... you know, at first, especially if you've worked on something really hard, you're like, Okay, I'm just gonna put this down for a little while. But eventually I come around to, I really don't like this and I don't want to hang over my head. So I'll just rip it out. The thing about knitting is you can reuse your yarn, make something completely different out of it. But you can't unread something.

ANNE: That is true. You reminded me of something we need to talk about. I like that you're thinking, let's go explore in the bookstore. We don't want you to be overwhelmed. So I'm just going to offer a few tips. This is by no means exhaustive, but I hope it will help you get comfortable and get back to that place that feeling like, "Oh, what glorious options," instead of "Oh, there's too much and my brain cannot handle it."

[00:19:56] So first, I would suggest you narrow it down. Instead of walking in looking for a book that you have a specific section that you intend to explore, or genre, or just wing of the store that you're going to explore, that's all you're going to do, it's fine.

A bookstore can have less than a thousand books, it can have tens of thousands of books. But either way, if you can lower that number that will help you. So start by narrowing it down. You can ask for help.

Now, you don't have to ask a bookseller, Hey, help me find my perfect book match that I'm definitely going to leave with today. But as you walk in and say like, Hey, I just want to see what's here. Like what's particularly interesting? What do you all do really well? What do you recommend? Is there a display that people are really loving right now? Would you point me in that direction? You can start there, instead of feeling like you need to crawl over every inch of the store or read multiple...

You know, you mentioned that you're interested in exploring new genres. You don't need to look at six different genre sections if those are the six different genres. That's a lot of books to look at. But letting a bookseller choose for you really, and narrow it down and point you in the direction that they have reason to believe might be a good fit for you that has been a good fit for other readers, that could be helpful.

[00:21:17] You certainly could say, Hey, this is specifically what I'm looking for. I want a book that feels light and fun and fresh. And here are three titles I liked. You don't have to tell them three. That's what we do here. You could ask for more specific help. But even having them point you towards a

certain section of the store instead of just you having free rein over the whole thing, that could be helpful. Now, free reign over the whole bookstore sounds like heaven to a lot of readers. But that's not what you want as a reader right now.

Another way that they can narrow it down for you is even if you don't wish to talk to booksellers, if that feels intimidating, you can see if they have staff picks, or you could wander the shelves and let your eyes be drawn to the shelf talkers, if you're in a bookstore that has them. And I hope you are. That's when booksellers will write little blurbs that say, Hey, hey, I'm Adam, and I really connected with this book. This is why I loved it. Just seeing what titles the bookstore has chosen to elevate for you.

[00:22:19] I personally love a bookstore that has a nice staff picks section with shelf talkers or explainers. Those are my favorite places to browse in my regular bookstore and bookstores I'm visiting for the first time. And if it helps you, you could think of your bookstore visit as more of a field trip or museum visit than an errand and something that you're doing on your to-do list to buy a book, if it takes the pressure off. Because I am wondering if you're putting pressure on yourself to tell yourself that you're just gonna go in and explore and you'll come back in a few days after you've had the chance to sit with it and mull it over to actually get your book. You can totally do that.

Now, if you feel weird not making a purchase, you can buy a tote bag, you can buy a t-shirt. I like to buy stationery and thank you notes at bookstores. They often have a nice selection. Also, I'm almost out of my... I'm on the third to last page of my Rhodia reverse book that I use to podcast. Like that's the kind of thing I pick up at bookstores all the time, the stationery products and pens.

[00:23:18] But if it takes the pressure off and helps you be a better explorer, if you're not thinking like I have to leave with a four or five-star book today, then by all means, use that strategy.

PATTY: It's kind of funny that you say that, because like when I go to a bookstore and I leave, I don't feel self-conscious about it. But I do feel that way when I go to a knitting store. You know, I feel like I have to at least buy some little trinket or a ball of yarn or just something. So it's kind of funny how, I guess, what we're into, we have a certain sense of wanting to support.

ANNE: And you really understand the stakes and what it means to support these shops so that they can continue to serve us.

PATTY: Absolutely.

ANNE: And everybody who loves these hobbies that we love. Patty, do you find any of that helpful?

PATTY: Oh, absolutely. I will try to employ some of those practices. Yeah, I think narrowing it down is a good way to do it instead of just being overwhelmed and not feeling like I failed if I come away empty-handed. Just keep trying.

[00:24:30] ANNE: Yeah, no, you're gathering information that is the stager. And we could talk about how to vet books, how to look at covers, what questions to ask. I don't think we're gonna have a three-hour episode today. But I want you to know that there are skills that you can continue to build hopefully in a way that you find really enjoyable in the process.

Now, Patty, we do want to find some books that may feel like better fits for you than the ones that you have been picking up lately as you do try to figure out like, okay, who am I now as a reader? What do I like reading right now? And to that end, I think we should start talking about your books. Are you ready?

PATTY: I am.

ANNE: Patty, you know how this works? You're going to share three books you love, one book you don't, and what you've been reading lately, and then we will talk about what you may enjoy reading next. Patty, what's the first book you love?

[00:25:24] PATTY: This is where I'm afraid I'm going to throw you a little bit off because it's been so long since I've read these books. And the way I threw my submission together, it was just like, I'm just pulling these books out of my head.

So Hotel Pastis, Peter Mayle books, that's a solid. That one's really easy. I love the way he takes you to France, he immerses you in the culture, the landscapes, the smells, the character oddities. And he often throws in a little bit of adventure or mystery. I just love to sit outside on a warm evening with a glass of wine and just read his books. Not every book is like a five-star book, but I just love the way he makes me feel, and just how relaxing it is. I've tried other books of that nature but there really isn't a writer that I found so far that kind of hits that mark.

[00:26:27] ANNE: I love the way you describe that reading experience. Patty, what's the second book that you love?

PATTY: This is where it will start to get a little bit harder and a little bit fuzzy for me. I picked Practical Magic because I remember whenever I go to the used bookstore, I would pick an Alice Hoffman book out. That was kind of one of my go-to authors. I think I really enjoyed her writing style, her character development. I think Practical Magic stands out because I do enjoy just a touch of whimsy, some superpowers, little magic in my fiction. Nothing over the top, just a touch. So that's why I picked that particular one.

ANNE: Okay, that's good to know. And what did you choose for your final favorite?

PATTY: I picked a couple of Barbara Kingsolver books. I remember reading Animal Dreams, and The Bean Trees. Both my husband and I read them. And I remember being really enchanted by them. I had every intention of rereading The Bean Trees before this podcast, but I ran out of time.

[00:27:39] So yesterday morning, I just went to SparkNotes and I read the summaries of those books. When I read the summaries, I was just like, "Oh, my God, why would I read these stories?" You know, it's the tragedy, the topics that are listed in this book, the way it's described, it's like, I don't really want that in my reading life.

Then I went on a walk, and I just kept further reflecting on it, and I can only attribute it to the sheer incredible talent of the author to take subjects that are so difficult and so tragic and make it a story that you can actually enjoy as a reader. Just because, you know, when you look at the summary, it just kind of, you know, does this cold listing of this is what's in this book, and it's just like, almost

horrifying. It's like, I like the book. But so anyway, I attribute that just to their writing style of the author and the talent.

[00:28:40] ANNE: You know what I think is interesting, is when you described Hotel Pasties, you spoke entirely about how that book made you feel. You enjoyed the travel to France, the adventure, the mystery, and it's the kind of book you wanted to read on a warm evening on the porch with a glass of wine.

I don't think anybody ever wanted to read a book because of a SparkNotes description, because that's about what happens. But that's not the same thing as saying what the book is about. And it's leagues away from describing how a book makes you feel as a reader.

PATTY: Absolutely.

ANNE: Just as you're thinking what to pick up next, what occurs in the story is not the same as the journey you go on as a reader.

PATTY: Hurray. I think I learned that from this experience.

ANNE: I'm glad you did. Patty, what have you been reading lately? I know you've been wanting to get back into reading so you've been exploring some popular genres. Where's that taken you?

[00:29:38] PATTY: So I read The Paris Agent by Kelly Rimmer. My sister-in-law said she was really into World War II novels. So I just decided to pick the one that up and give it a try.

I also read A Fatal Grace by Louise Penny just because some of my high school friends, they just love that author. I listened to your podcast with Louise Penny. And so I wanted to give that a try.

I'm also currently reading The Seven-Year Slip by Ashley Poston. And I do enjoy a little bit of lightweight, you know, like I said, magic superpowers, time travel. So I'm giving that one a try. I'm probably about a third of the way through that one.

[00:30:34] I also picked up a copy of The Nightingale. I was out over at a friend's house and so I just started asking people, "Okay, what's your very favorite book?" So this was one of the ones that was mentioned. So I found that in my used bookstore, and so that's sitting on my shelf to try.

I also purchased Beach Read. I'm not sure when I'll get to that. That might be more of a summer sort of read. I think I was listening to NPR and they mentioned a book called Platonic. So this is a nonfiction book. I guess you'd classify it as a self-help book. I don't know if you've heard of it.

ANNE: Yeah, we read that in Modern Mrs. Darcy Book Club.

PATTY: Okay. So that intrigued me because I think it is harder to establish friendships, especially coming to a new town. And I want to learn more about that. I do want to throw this in there, that one of the books that I would have put on my top three list had it come to my mind, I think it didn't, because this is actually a book that I read via audio, and my brain is still not connecting audio with reading.

[00:31:46] I just remembered this amazing book that I listened to by Jill Heinerth. She wrote a book called Into the Planet. So this is a nonfiction book. She is a cave diver. And oh, my God, it was narrated by her, so it was very authentic. And what an amazing woman! The things that she has done are just so remarkable.

I think one of the things that I would really like to do is maybe head myself towards more stories that are more memoirs, not so much feminists, but just strong women who have accomplished things. It doesn't have to be women.

I'm fascinated by certain types of history, like, Ernest Shackleton [Iditarod?]. There's a wonderful podcast from Julia Louis-Dreyfus, that she just started called Wiser Than Me. She interviews women that are older. I'm really interested in people like Gina McCarthy, the former EPA administrator, Carol Burnett, Jane Fonda, maybe Madeleine Albright. I don't know, just stories like that I think I would enjoy in terms of nonfiction. I'm also open to maybe a spy novel. I have enjoyed some young adult novels.

[00:33:19] ANNE: Patty, we can work with this. Let's review. The books you loved were Hotel Pasties by Peter Mayle, Practical Magic by Alice Hoffman and The Bean Trees, also Animal Dreams by Barbara Kingsolver. Oh, Patty, I didn't ask you to tell us about a book that wasn't right for you.

PATTY: Yeah, I would say The Power of Now. My husband loved it, he's read it several times, and I just could not get through a chapter. Maybe I'm just not into self-help books. That's not to say that there haven't been a couple of self-help books that have made a strong impact in my life. But I think in general, I sort of, like to take a lot of inputs, but then figure things out on my own.

ANNE: That is good to know. Now we can say the book that wasn't right for you was The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle. And lately you've been wanting to get back into reading. You picked up A Fatal Grace by Louise Penny, The Paris Agent by Kelly Rimmer. You're currently reading The Seven Year Slip by Ashley Poston. You have Beach Read by Emily Henry and The Nightingale by Kristin Hannah on deck.

[00:34:20] And right now in your reading life, in your own words, you would love a page-turner that will make it easier for you to pick up a book and put down your knitting for a time. You like funny, you like adventurous, you like fun and exciting. You don't care if it's fiction or nonfiction. You've said you're very open to memoir. But you don't want anything tragic and heartbreaking.

In your own words, Patty, you've said, "I want to feel good when I am reading." And we know you're a sensitive reader so nothing that leaves you sad, scared or haunted. You don't think whodunit mysteries are for you. It sounds like World War II historical fiction is something you definitely want to explore. But maybe that's for phase two of your new for right now reading life. You don't think you're into complex for personal or family drama.

So what I'd love to do is take the things we know about you as a reader and the topics that you're interested in exploring and see how a couple of books sound. Can we do that?

PATTY: Yes.

[00:35:20] ANNE: All right, Patty. I've got some ideas for you. You ready?

PATTY: I am ready.

ANNE: All right, we are going to start with a nonfiction book called Brave the Wild River: The Untold Story of Two Women Who Mapped the Botany of the Grand Canyon. I like how this book combines your love of adventure of the natural world. You mentioned you're interested in stories of exploration, especially with the American West.

This is a tale of two female botanists who did absolutely groundbreaking things for their time in 1938. They go on a scientific expedition/enormous adventure down the famously dangerous Colorado River. Their purpose is to document the region's plants. But the only way they can do that is completely terrifying—navigating, you know, the rapids in this tiny boat with all their gear that nothing bad can happen to it.

[00:36:17] So this story... well, I say story, but this real-life narrative relies heavily on the women's own journals and letters. And the author tells the story of their 43-day voyage. And while this is non-fiction, an account of a scientific expedition, it reads more like an adventure novel. And not

only do you learn about the plants and the discovery and the ways that they were really ahead of their time, she weaves in the social and political history of the region, along with these fascinating nuggets about the exploration of the American West in the Grand Canyon in particular.

So I know that you're a nature lover and an adventure story lover. This is very much in the vein of like The Emerald Mile, Candice Millard books, especially River of the Gods. Of course, this is great for history buffs. I think it could be a good pic for you. How does that sound, Patty?

PATTY: That sounds wonderful. It's exactly the type of stories that I'm looking for.

ANNE: I'm excited to hear that. Patty, you mentioned you thought a spy thriller might be fun, and I'm trying to thread the needle here in knowing that you don't want a whodunnit and you don't want anything hard or heavy at this moment. But you do like humor and adventure. And that leads me to a spy novel that reads as a little bit of a caper that is not realistic but could be a lot of fun for you, especially because it opens in Paris and then there's some travel to other European countries. Am I on the right track?

PATTY: Absolutely, yes.

[00:37:44] ANNE: All right. The book I have in mind is The Blonde Identity. It's by Ally Carter. This is the fun and funny spy novel about a woman who wakes up knowing that she's banged her head, and discovers that for some reason, everyone thinks she's a spy. They are after her because she has I believe it's a flash drive that everybody wants that has valuable information on it.

She doesn't know exactly what's happening but she knows that they've made a huge mistake. Like she can't remember what just happened but she knows she's not a spy. She doesn't know what she does do in her regular life, but it's not that. So it turns out, she's an identical twin, and her identical twin is in fact wanted because she has crossed a bunch of bad guys for good reasons.

So this poor woman whose identity is revealed at the end, and it's really funny, I enjoyed it, did not see it coming. Maybe I should have but I didn't. And I thought that was a fun way to wrap that up. Her identical twin spy sister's partner, who happens to be an extremely handsome agent himself,

tracks her down and says, Yo, what's going on? Like, let's get... let's get going. They're after us." And she's like, "Oh, you don't understand."

[00:38:57] So they hit the road together. There may be some romantic feelings involved. I don't think it would be too far-fetched to call this a romantic comedy of sorts. And they have to outwit the bad guys. And they do it in a series of like madcap, well-humored ways. I think this could be a lot of fun for you. How does that sound?

PATTY: You know, I love those types of movies. So I can't imagine that I wouldn't love that type of book.

ANNE: I'm glad to hear it. And then I really wanted to think about something for your love of cycling. I don't know if you've read many cycling books, but there are a few good ones like classics of the genre that I feel like it wouldn't be a bad thing to make the acquaintance of. And it can be kind of hard to pick.

There's also a fictional novel, not about your kind of cycling but about velodrome. Gold by Gold by Chris Cleave. That one is filled of heartbreak and angst. So maybe it's not right for you. But I just want to say that there are other kinds of stories that involve cycling and training and competition that you could enjoy.

[00:40:05] But before we hit record, we were chatting about how much you enjoyed watching the Tour de France. And there is an old novel from the 70s by a Dutch author named Tim Krabbé. It's called The Rider. This is not a long book. It's less than 200 pages, there is not that much knitting time that you would miss to give this a try.

And were you to pick it up not knowing much about it, you might think it was a memoir by a fierce competitor. Because it's written from that perspective. The concept is that you are inside the mind of a talented writer at the top of his game in the middle of an important competition. And he's telling you what it feels like, what he's thinking, what his strategy is, how the wind hits him in the face, how he needs to pivot, how he's thinking about stamina. Like you are in his mind.

[00:41:03] And I know you don't do this kind of writing, but you know a lot about writing. And I wonder if this high-stakes competition adventure book will be even more enjoyable because you have that connection to the work. How does that sound?

PATTY: Now is this the one about the Velodrome that you mentioned or...? ANNE: No. That book is Gold by Chris Cleave?

PATTY: It's just kind of interesting that you mentioned that Velodrome because back in Germany in the 50s, my dad was actually a bike racer, and he raced on the Velodrome.

ANNE: No! Really?

PATTY: Yeah. He has, you know, like a poster that they used to advertise these Yirga versus such and such. And it was actually a very violent sport. So I may actually be a little bit more intrigued by that one than the one you just mentioned.

ANNE: Well, let me tell you about it. This is Gold by Chris Cleave. This story centers around two velodrome cyclists who are best friends and arch-rivals. They share a coach. Now, this book is hard. It's hard, especially in that it's high stakes. People are getting hurt all the time in training. So of course, that's terrible. But also this story really centers a life-threatening illness of a child. So please note that content warning.

[00:42:34] But the coach. The coach has a dry sense of humor that is present for so much of the story. And I think it added the levity and perspective that really made this work for me. It was a good story before but it's so hard. But when you add in this like wisecracking coach, it's great.

So what Cleave does here is set out the complicated history between the two women, while he keeps raising the stakes in the present as they're competing for limited spots for the Olympic Games that we all know only happen every four years. Like if you miss your chance, you often miss it forever. But you have these two best friends who are each other's fiercest competitors, and whose personal lives are all entangled as well.

The story is told from multiple points of view. I gotta say it is the coach's point they made the book for me, set primarily in the London area. They're training for the London Olympics. And Cleve is a British author. He's written a gorgeous World War II historical fiction story. I'm not suggesting you read that right now. In fact, I might say, Patty, do not read that book right now. But I do want to make you aware that that book also exists by the same author.

[00:43:50] PATTY: I think that sounds really intriguing to me, especially what you're talking about with this velodrome racing. It was a very violent sport. You know, the stories that I've heard from my father, they would throw each other into the stands with an elbow. He had countless broken bones from it.

ANNE: Oh, I kept googling. Is this real? Could this really happen? And Google would say, oh, that has happened. Yeah, over and over.

PATTY: Yeah. Some of the pictures you could see the spectators. You know, they were all dressed up. And it was, I think for them, like going to a boxing match. It was very sensational. So I think I would actually really enjoy reading this book and sort of absorbing more of what it was like for my dad back then racing in the velodrome. It's funny that you came up with that.

[00:44:45] ANNE: Well, that is such a cool personal connection and I'm really excited that didn't come up today. Okay, Patty, so we talked about Brave the Wild River by Melissa Sevigny, The Blonde Identity by Ally Carter, The Rider by Tim Krabbé. And finally Gold by Chris Cleave. Of those books, what are you inclined to pick up next?

PATTY: I think my first one will be Brave the Wild River. I want to read all of them. I think they're great picks. But Brave the Wild River is one that's just grabbing me at the moment.

ANNE: Patty, I hope that's a fit for you. And I hope our conversation has given you good food for thought as you enter the next stage of your reading life. Thanks so much for talking books with me today.

PATTY: Yeah, thank you so much, Anne. I really appreciate it.

[00:45:38] ANNE: Hey, readers, I hope you enjoyed my discussion with Patty, and I'd love to hear what you think she should read next.

We've included the full list of titles we talked about today at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com where you can leave a comment with your suggestions for Patty.

Make sure you're on our email list to get updates on what's happening around here. Sign up at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com/newsletter. Instagram is another great place to connect with us. I'm there @annebogel. Our podcast page is @whatshouldireadnext.

Make sure you don't miss any of our upcoming episodes by following along in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Overcast, wherever you get your podcasts.

And readers, if you missed last week's episode, it is a must-listen. Our team chimed in with a whole bunch of recommendations responding to your gift requests. And it's a great list of books that you will want to gift this year.

Thanks to the people who make this show happen. What Should I Read Next? is created each week by Will Bogel, Holly Wielkoszewski, and Studio D Podcast Production. Readers, that's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And as Rainer Maria Rilke said, "Ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading." Happy reading, everyone.